Home of Professional Cinematography since 1996

3D Phantoms

Published : 18th June 2011

I've searched but can't find any detailed info on syncing 2 Phantoms for a 3D shoot.

I'll be putting them in a Quasar rig.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based
Skype geoff.boyle
mobile: +44 (0)7831 562877
www.gboyle.co.uk


>>I've searched but can't find any detailed info on syncing 2 Phantoms for a 3D shoot.

Contact Mitch Gross or Jesse Rosen at Abel Cinetech in New York. If anyone knows they will.

http://www.abelcine.com/articles/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=32%3Amitch-gross&catid=37&Itemid=3

Clark Graff
Propellerhead -VFX Supervisor - 600 DIT
Los Angeles, Toronto, Vancouver


Geoff Boyle wrote:

> >I've searched but can't find any detailed info on syncing 2 Phantoms for a 3D shoot.

Syncing two (or more) Phantoms is easy and putting them on a Quazar rig is no problem.
ET actually makes special plates for the Phantom HD Gold to make mounting and precise alignment simple and fast.

Let's chat off forum.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech


>>Syncing two (or more) Phantoms is easy and putting them on a Quazar rig is no problem. ET >>actually makes special plates for the Phantom HD Gold to make mounting and precise alignment >>simple and fast.

>Let's chat off forum.

Why would you want to take this discussion offline? Are there issues with the setup?

I think the topic is very relevant to those subscribing to cml-3d.

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California


Bob Kertesz wrote:

> >Why would you want to take this discussion offline? Are there issues with the setup?

Not at all, it just gets into the minute of Phantom setup with the Vision Research software. It's stuff we teach the Phantom Techs and it is very specific and frankly rather boring if you don't know the software.

Phantoms come from a line of industrial cameras that get used in high speed production lines, science labs, military applications, etc. When shooting artillery at a tank from multiple angles it can be mission critical to have all the cameras absolutely in perfect sync, even at  thousands of frames per second. Phantoms have their own way of locking the cameras to one another and it's rock solid, but it is particular to the system.

BTW, the Phantom v640 and the new Phantom Flex offer proper Genlock on the video output so that two cameras not only record perfect sync but also playback that way as well. We just did a stereo shoot where the cameras would shoot the shot in high speed (in this case v640 cameras at 2700fps in 1920x1080) and then immediately play it back at 24fps,  all in perfect sync 3D. Pretty sweet and made the client very happy.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech


I second what Mitch has said. If your tech has done Multi-Camera Phantom shoots the process is pretty simple as long as you know what to do in the software. UK Phantom Tech Jason Berman is in your neck of the woods and has done 3D phantom projects so I would reach out to him as he's is closer to you.

On 3D PhantomHD jobs I usually get at least 4-6 Cinemags, and 2 Cinestations minimum. Have your Digital Loader get 2 laptops/towers plus a back-up. When setting up your light meter you’re looking at 125asa through a beam-splitter, about 3asa@800fps. If you are interior and don't think the budget is going to allow you the lighting then I recommend getting the V640 as it is much more sensitive camera then the HD Gold but less available. Everything else is the same as far as on-set protocol goes with Phantom.

Last I heard, the Flex hasn't been released yet nor has anyone but Abel put it through its paces. Mitch has that changed?

Good luck,

Dane Brehm
Phantom Tech
presently in Oakland, CA


Bob Kertesz wrote:

>> I think the topic is very relevant to those subscribing to cml-3d.

In a nutshell, to sync to Phantoms you need to connect F-Sync between the two cameras (this keeps the shutters in sync), IRIG timecode (TC out of one camera to TC in of the other), and bridge the triggers so you can trigger both cameras together. Generally you'll want to run ethernet of both cameras to a switch so you can control both from a single computer.

In the software some configuration needs to be done to set up one camera as master and the other as slave. (These steps won't mean much to someone without a couple of Phantoms in front of them, but it you really want to know I'd be happy to post)

The only limitation on camera settings is that you can't have a 360 degree shutter -- there needs to be sometime between frames for frame sync to work properly.

By the way, I'm building a small stand-alone controller that will connect to two cameras and automate most of this process. I should have a couple ready for testing by the end of the summer.

Jesse Rosen
Director of Technical Development

Abel Cine Tech, 609 Greenwich St NYC 10014
888.223.1599 | 212.462.0186 | f.212.462.0199
| www.abelcine.com


>>In a nutshell, to sync to Phantoms you need to connect F-Sync between the two cameras (this >>keeps the shutters in sync), IRIG timecode (TC out of one camera to TC in of the other), and bridge >>the triggers so you can trigger both cameras together.

Thank you, Jesse. The geek in me is always interested in these things.

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California


Hi Geoff,

The phantoms will "genlock" using the sync connection on the cameras, very rock solid lock once it's set up. We recently used them on a 3D shoot which Pirate worked on, also on Quasar. The biggest pain is getting a temporal sync on playback from the camera.


I was handling Qtake for 3D playback and setting the cameras up to output correctly for this was half the battle. You definitely need your test day for this.

Thanks,

Simon Hargreaves


Geoff Boyle wrote:

> >I've searched but can't find any detailed info on syncing 2 Phantoms for a 3D shoot.

We transferred some S3D 1000fps phantom tests the other day. Both eyes were beautifully locked on the sync test shot of a mouse trap being set off.

Adrian Hauser
Cutting Edge EQ
Sydney

Personal Website
www.iris-digital.org/wordpress


Geoff ...Phantom left and right eyes available from Love High Speed Based at Arrimedia in Oxbridge London

Geoff In this circumstance I hope u don't mind the shameless plug.


Thanks to Dane as usual I must owe u a whole pub by now the amount of beers I owe you.

On way to Munich on the 3d high speed tip

Give me a call

Jason Berman
High speed tech
London
44 7973 698 475


I'm curious too. Does the time code generator need to support the fps at which you are shooting? If so, I can't even find one that will do 100 fps.

-Chris Reese
VP Operations
N4D, LLC
www.n4d.us


>>I'm curious too. Does the time code generator need to support the fps at which you are shooting? If >>so, I can't even find one that will do 100 fps.

SMPTE time code is pretty much meaningless once you move away from the "normal" frame rates (24,30,50,60 and their TV equivalents) or do "off-speed" ramping.

The Phantom apparently uses IRIG (Inter-range instrumentation group) time code which it generates internally. That is a different beast from the SMPTE flavour (original pre-dates it by about a decade, actually). Standalone IRIG generators are not commonly available, which is why Jesse said you have to feed the output of one camera into the input of the other to make them have the same code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIG_timecode

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California


Standalone IRIG generators are not commonly available

I would amend that slightly to say that they are not commonly available for rental, but they out there for purchase.

IRIG is very common outside our industry. The military uses it and GPS uses it.

SMPTE simply cannot parse more than 60 individual events per second. Doesn't do one much good when shooting 1,4 million fps as one can on some Phantom cameras.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech


>>I'm curious too. Does the time code generator need to support the fps at which you are shooting? If >>so, I can't even find one that will do 100 fps.

My ESE HD-488 timecode master has the IRIG option plus GPS and NTP you
can get one to from ESE.

http://ese-web.com/

~Clark Graff
Propellerhead - VFX Supervisor - DIT Local 600
Los Angeles, Toronto, Vancouver