Red and Colour

Published : 8th September 2009

Has anyone had any experience with sending native red (r3d) timelines to color and then grading, if so how does this compare to creating dpx and grading from a dpx sequence? In theory, outside scratch, grading r3d in color should be the most flexible approach (as it is floating point- though obviously without all the tools of the big boys) or am I missing something?

Keith Mottram
Editor -

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Has anyone had any experience with sending native red (r3d) timelines to color and then grading, if so how does this compare to creating dpx and grading from a dpx sequence?

It saves time working directly with the RedRAW files vs transcoding DPX's . Color is a little clunky still, I will admit. It’s good for low budget projects.

Good luck,

Dane Brehm
310.710.2658
Cinema Data Tech
Phantom | Red | S.Two

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>>Has anyone had any experience with sending native red (r3d) timelines to color and then grading, if so >>how does this compare to creating dpx and grading from a dpx sequence?

It takes a lot longer to render. You're trading the render time prior to color correction (for DPX conversions) for render time after the color correction. You don't gain a lot of color flexibility, but you do gain the ability to alter metadata settings on a shot by shot basis if necessary. So there's some value to it, but not as much as one might think. This is as opposed to using, say, an Assimilate Scratch system, which can access the full 4K worth of information and render to formats larger than 2K if desired - neither of which is possible in Color, at least in the current version.

Does that help to answer your question?

Mike Most
Chief Technologist
Cineworks Digital Studios
Miami, Fl.

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Mike, Dane,

Thanks for the replies, I tried to test this workflow on a corporate a while back, but the folder, file structure, and naming conventions I received from the DIT was such a mess that we ended up grading from the ProRes files. Having had little experience with Red cameras it was hard to say where the problem began, but it was neither cost or time effective for me to manually reconnect r3d files which with tired eyes merged together in their folder. For the project I'm prepping on I will stick to DPX as if there is little benefit then the other problems created will negate it- particularly with 3d etc and colors inability to import matts. Will endeavor to do some tests soon, but after coming off a feature would rather spend some time with my kid at home than half around with r3d files!

On a separate note whilst spending some time with the colorist on the base light I discovered that there is a problem with the D21's green channel when it comes to moving into film colour space, basically it goes a bit electric and if you try to calm it down it down you start to get problems with skin tones etc. no problem in digital colour space, so HD master is fine, but turned out to be a problem for us for theatrical version as there are lots of foliage and nature shots and when we couldn't use power windows we've ended up with burnt yellow/green foliage on the filmout. Otherwise D21 held up very well with the inevitable blown out shots looking pleasingly unelectronic!

Keith Mottram
Editor,

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Keith Mottram wrote:

>> I discovered that there is a problem with the D21's green channel when it comes to moving into film >>colour space, basically it goes a bit electric...

Hmmm. I don't think we found this to be the case on a recent DI we did using Arri Raw files. Those files were converted using an Arri supplied RAW converter, with gamma conversion and color matrix set up for Cineon Log with "full" saturation, and we were color correcting though a print preview viewing LUT. Perhaps the situation is different when using the dual link HD output, as that would likely be going through a different color matrix. Is that what you were using?

Mike Most
Chief Technologist
Cineworks Digital Studios
Miami, Fl.

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Mike Most wrote:

>> Hmmm. I don't think we found this to be the case on a recent DI we did using Arri Raw files.

That's interesting because I brought this up with our colourist at the Mill, who's pretty darned experienced and wondered whether an all data workflow would have made the difference- we went 444 log to an SR1(sq mode). The colourist thought it was a D21 quirk, but after your reply I'm going to speak to Arri and see if they can shed some light on it.

What recorder did you use with the D21?

Keith Mottram
Editor, London

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Keith Mottram wrote:

>> we went 444 log to an SR1(sq mode). .... What recorder did you use with the D21?

It was recorded on an S.two using the T-link interface. That records uncompressed raw sensor data, not dual link video.

You might want to contact Glenn Kennel, who's with Arri now in Burbank. We had a nice talk at the recent HPA conference and he's deeply involved in sorting out any D21 issues and creating a more streamlined post path. He's also a really great guy.

Mike Most
Chief Technologist
Cineworks Digital Studios
Miami, Fl.

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Mike Most wrote:

>>You might want to contact Glenn Kennel, who's with Arri now in Burbank.

Will cc him when I contact Milan at Arri over here. Thanks again Mike.

Keith Mottram

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[mike] You might want to contact Glenn Kennel, who's with Arri now in Burbank.
<blink> <blink> Mike - when did Glenn leave LP?

What a *great* hire for Arri!

Lucas Wilson
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

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Lucas Wilson writes:

>>What a *great* hire for Arri!

It does clearly say "we're totally serious about digital cinema".

Tim Sassoon
Santa Monica, CA

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Ø It does clearly say "we're totally serious about digital cinema".
I don’t think that there’s been any question about that for a good few years now.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle
DP
EU based

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Geoff Boyle wrote :

>>I don’t think that there’s been any question about that for a good few years now

Some of the best technological advancements have happened because of the confluence of different fields, with different perspective on solutions to the same set of problem. However, IMHO, the revolution in digital cinema is being suffered because of some "in-breeding". The current flow of ideas conforms to certain established notions of traditional filmmaking and cinematography, and that reflects upon technological innovation.

That has hampered developments in digital infrastructure. Even newer entrants to this area, such as Red One, have not been able to fully avoid the consequences of such prevailing thought, and have conformed to many traditional notions of technology solutions, as a result in the end they have ended up offering which for many people the stronger (strongest??) point is cost, as similar, or perhaps equivalent if not higher, image quality was already being offered by some other manufacturers. Interestingly, what those other manufacturers were offering, was to some extent over-priced in the first place.

Several technological solutions to the problems faced by the cinema industry are available in fields that are closely aligned. However, the "digital cinema revolution" is being myopically defined by some, and to some extent there is little realization and appreciation of the existence of such solutions.

DJ Joofa
Image Sensor Pipeline and HD Video
Austin, Texas

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Lucas Wilson wrote:

>> <blink> <blink> Mike - when did Glenn leave LP?

A little over a month ago, as I recall. Definitely before HPA.

>> What a *great* hire for Arri!

I agree.

Mike Most
Chief Technologist
Cineworks Digital Studios
Miami, Fl.

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Dj Joofa wrote:

>> Several technological solutions to the problems faced by the cinema industry are available in fields >>that are closely aligned. However, the "digital cinema revolution" is being myopically defined by some, >>and to some extent there is little realization and appreciation of the existence of such solutions.

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP

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Dj Joofa wrote:

>>Several technological solutions to the problems faced by the cinema industry are available in fields that >>are closely aligned....

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us.

Yeah, perhaps someone could tell me / us what the #%&* he was writing about! ?
ganzo, asc

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Hi Brian,

Film industry is just one customer to high-end imaging solutions that are becoming increasing complex. There are customers outside the realm of film that are seeking innovations to imaging system that have strong bearing to digital cinema.

To answer your query, several examples could be given. I shall outline a few issues that are encountered frequently in digital film world:

(1) Color space specification, selection of appropriate color vectors (RGB, XYZ, etc.), and inter-conversion between them,
(2) Color temperature accommodation,
(3) Noisy footage under certain lighting (e.g., blue noise under Tungsten lighting, etc.)
(4) Color fidelity, saturation, and chroma noise,
(5) IR blocking, and,
(6) Certain aspects of color correction / color grading

Traditional solutions to such problems have treated them more or less separately since the acquisition stage has gathered a small subset of available data. I quickly glanced over the Digital Cinema Initiative (DCI) v. 1.2 specification, which is indeed a noble ambition, sometime back, and was surprised to see adherence to same classic notions of colorimetry. (At best the color vectors (RGB, XYZ, etc.) would be changed among themselves to transfer from color space to another).

There is no provision for more advanced methods, such as multi-spectral and hyper-spectral imaging.. Several manufactures who are developing high-end imaging solutions are beginning to explore these areas. Even we have dabbed into these areas as our customers want it. It would be fair to say that our customers are driving us to develop such imaging solutions, and we are in the process of actively developing such hardware and software. Please bear in mind that some of the requirements of these people are much more stringent than the film world, such as high noise immunity, ultra low-light response, etc.

Using such higher dimensional methods has its own challenges, especially considering high frame-rates, but in due time they will be addressed. Bottom line is that such solutions that we and other people are developing for our customers, which are not film-based, have strong applications in the film world. That is the film world can take advantage of these methods and solutions.

It is the job of various societies setup recently for the promotion of digital cinema to develop an appreciation of such non-traditional imaging solutions and incorporate them into the existing infrastructure in the film world. Hollywood is big entity and behaves like a big organization, so, of course, it has a natural momentum that is slow and in many cases unappreciative of more modern technology. Some of the foot-dragging results partly from the concern regarding massive changes to existing infrastructure, not just in Hollywood, but in broadcast industry also. However, I personally don't see much impediment in the absorption of the more modern methods into existing technology with appropriate front-ends.

DJ Joofa
Imaging Solutions and HD Video
Austin, Texas

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Dj Joofa wrote:

>>....Film industry is just one customer to high-end imaging solutions that are becoming increasing >>complex. There are customers outside the realm of film that are seeking innovations to imaging system >>that have strong bearing to digital cinema....

To answer your query, several examples could be given. I shall outline a few issues that are encountered frequently in digital film world:....

DJ- could you please write in more specific terms as to what you are alluding to. You are still being very general and vague about things. Perhaps you have a website for your company / organization that might help to enlighten us more concisely?

Thanks,

Roberto Schaefer, asc

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Dj Joofa writes:

>>There is no provision for more advanced methods, such as multi-spectral and hyper-spectral imaging.

IMHO those aren't anywhere near as relevant to cinematography as, say, high dynamic range, light field capture and scene depth information. Quite the opposite in current practice. Concerted efforts are made to _exclude_ non-visible light components, both UV and IR.

(Though I personally would love to be able to visualize RF fields; it would make antenna placement much easier. And being able to see and avoid X and Gamma ray bursts may prove to be a useful survival mechanism.)

Tim Sassoon
Santa Monica, CA

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Ganzo wrote:

>>DJ- could you please write in more specific terms as to what you are alluding to. You are still being very >>general and vague about things. Perhaps you have a website for your company / organization that might >>help to enlighten us more concisely?

Hi Roberto,

Some vagueness stems from the fact that we cater to OEMs that may not be identified and additionally, I can't go in detail of certain things that are proprietary on an open forum such as CML. However, I shall be very glad for any offline discussion.

TIM Sassoon wrote:

>>IMHO those aren't anywhere near as relevant to cinematography as, say, high dynamic range, light field >>capture and scene depth information. Quite the opposite in current practice. Concerted efforts are made to >>_exclude_ non-visible light components, both UV and IR.

Tim, that is the traditional view. Give some of the people who are working in this area sometime and hopefully we would see some good technology.

DJ Joofa
Imaging Solutions and HD Video
Austin, Texas

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>> There is no provision for more advanced methods, such as multi-spectral and hyper-spectral imaging.

Hi Dj,

As a participant in the SMPTE AdHoc group on Colorimetry which developed the digital cinema specs, I can say that we had strong knowledge of all the techniques that are and will be developed out in the field. Multi-spectral imaging was discussed in the context of the digital cinema distribution color space, but it was realized that any combination of spectral colors or multi-primary systems could still be reduced to a trichromatic color space if you had sufficiently wide primaries. XYZ was selected because it is a device-independent output color space that covers all possible visible colors. For output, we don't care about colors we don't see. XYZ is not a good color space for acquisition or for color timing, or anything else you might want to do with it.

For general production purposes, RGB (or whatever space of RGB primaries) that various devices produce is much better to work with. A practical and quickly deployable output color space was the only purpose of SMPTE and DCI.

Jim Houston
Starwatcher Digital

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Dj Joofa writes:

>>that is the traditional view. Give some of the people who are working in this area sometime and >>hopefully we would see some good technology.

The only thing that pops into my mind is chroma-keying. That it might be useful to use a non-visible portion of the spectrum as the key color. Contamination of the foreground would be much less of a problem. I think a multi-spectral architecture would be more useful than hyperspectral. I could see special +UV versions of digital cinema cameras.

Tim Sassoon
Santa Monica, CA

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>> The only thing that pops into my mind is chroma-keying. That it might be useful to use a non-visible >>portion of the spectrum as the key color.

Wow!!! Very cool idea!

David Perrault, CSC

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Hey Tim,

Wasn't IR used to key a shiny jet on a MOW about 10 years ago? I think the movie was about the jet that lost a portion of the top behind the pilot's cabin. Some people were whooshed out, etc.

Mark Woods
Director of Photography
Pasadena, California
www.markwoods.com

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Tim Sassoon wrote:

>>The only thing that pops into my mind is chroma-keying. That it might be useful to use a non-visible >>portion of the spectrum as the key color. Contamination of the foreground would be much less of a >>problem...

Anyone ever hear of the UV and IR traveling matte systems, or are you all too young?

Wade K. Ramsey, DP
Dept. of Cinema & Video Production
Bob Jones University
Greenville, SC 29614

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Tim Sassoon wrote:

>>The only thing that pops into my mind is chroma-keying. That it might be useful to use a non-visible >>portion of the spectrum as the key color

Interesting thought... of course we would need lenses that focus IR and UV the way they do visible light... as it is, the red end doesn't always land in the same place as the blue end.

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor

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Mark Woods writes:

>>Wasn't IR used to key a shiny jet on a MOW about 10 years ago? ?I think the movie was about the jet >>that lost a portion of the top behind the pilot's cabin. ?Some people were?whooshed?out, etc."

Wade Ramsey writes:

>>Anyone ever hear of the UV and IR traveling matte systems, or are you all too young??

Definitely too young. I've only used a Wood's glass system a few times, never used IR. And not using UVA directly, but making material fluorescent, i.e., re-emit the photon at a lower energy, in this case visible light. The real UV/IR process required a Technicolor 2-strip camera, didn't it? And had the problem of essentially a chromatic aberration, that the matte would photograph at a different size than the foreground?

I do know that "Miracle Landing" was made about the ill-fated Aloha Flight 243 in 1990, starring Connie Sellecca and Wayne Rogers. Attendant C.B. Lansing, played by Nancy Kwan, was the only real-life fatality, and she was indeed "whooshed out". Cinematography by Frank Beascoechea, ASC. Bill Mesa was the VFX Supervisor at Introvision, and won an Emmy for it. Flash Filmworks has a page devoted to it.

And that would be 19 years ago, Rip Van Winkle

Tim Sassoon
Santa Monica, CA

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FIREFOX was the film with the UV mattes..I still have all of my CINEFEX mags!

Cheers,

Jeff Barklage, s.o.c.
www.barklage.com
agent: TDN ARTISTS www.tdnartists.com
USA based DP

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Mark H. Weingartner wrote:

>>interesting thought... of course we would need lenses that focus IR and UV the way they do visible light."

UV has been used in the past. A chap called John Erland devised a 'reverse blue screen' for shooting shiny models that would otherwise pick up endless blue screen spill. A beauty pass in front of black for keying highlights then a separate pass under UV to excite a fluorescent lacquer (invisible under tungsten lighting) to create a matte.

Of course that's for shooting models with multiple passes.

A beamsplitter and two cameras recording a scene with one camera tweaked to the UV/IR spectrum focused at a (mildly) different distance? A great way to get a slightly not sharp enough matte.

Tom Townend,
Cinematographer/London

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Jeff Barklage wrote:

>>FIREFOX was the film with the UV mattes..I still have all of my CINEFEX mags!

Indeed it was. Another innovation was that the BG plates, shot from the nose cone of a Lear jet, simulated sudden accelerations to Mach 5 speed by ramping the frame rate whilst automatically compensating the iris. Something it took an eternity to bring to 'regular' shooting.

Tom Townend,
Cinematographer/London.

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Mark H. Weingartner wrote:

>>of course we would need lenses that focus IR and UV the way they do visible light...

The 60mm Apo Macro by Coastal Optics is a start. It's the first lens that I'm aware of to be so well corrected from 310 nm all the way to 1100 nm.

Their charts claim 70% MTF at 40 lp/mm almost all the way out to the edge of a FF35 image circle for UV, visible, *and* IR.

http://www.coastalopt.com/mmapomacro.html

Daniel Browning
Software Engineer
Portland, OR

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I vaguely remember Disney using a re-purposed 3-strip Technicolor camera to make in-camera traveling mattes in RT for composite work against a black BG, behind which were sodium vapor lights exposing the infra red film strip, but obviously the visual color film only saw the FG live-action.

I believe it was used for "Mary Poppins" as well as others.

Jacques Haitkin DP
San Francisco

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Tom Townend wrote:

>>UV has been used in the past...by people like me, in fact:-) but to correct you gently, we have tended to >>use a UV filter on the camera SPECIFICALLY to avoid neg exposure with UV light.

The use of UV light to excite fluorescent phosphors in order to coax them into emitting visible light is very different from using UV light to create a matte. The UV light in this case is merely the power source to drive the visible light phosphors. I have not used clear fluorescent washes on miniatures, but we have used UV light in order to "activate" fluorescent orangey red screens behind blue-greenish spaceships for a couple pictures.

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor
http://schneiderentertainment.com/dirphoto.htm

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Dj Joofa wrote:

>>However, IMHO, the revolution in digital cinema is being suffered because of some"in-breeding".... >>Several technological solutions to the problems faced by the cinema industry are available in fields that >>are closely aligned. However, the "digital cinema revolution" is being myopically defined by some, and to >>some extent there is little realization and appreciation of the existence of such solutions.

Hi

Dj Joofa, your notes are very interesting and the mind provoking (in the positive sense). We all will be thankful for more detailed elaboration of your statements regarding" some "in-breeding" and how we can increase our knowledge, and then possible "realization and appreciation of the existence of such solutions."And then, few days ago you have wrote "It appears the [ASC's] VideoCompanion does not merit much consideration that the regular American Cinematography Manual enjoys. The American Society of Cinematographers should take a serious notice of this. It is not much use of awarding the titles ASC, etc., when cinematographers are not fully prepared for the digitalterminology, its significance, its evolution and more importantly its growth."

It is a very serious statement, and while I do not take it personally as ASC member and as a contributor and member of ASC Technological Committee practically from its inception in 2004, nevertheless for bitterness of all it would be good to know what facts, perceptions, observations, personal experience or events described by others, etc., led you to the necessity to make such a statement about ASC? Feel free to answer me on-line or off-the-list, but please be very objective in the separation of the perception from reality. (The perception is very important too and cannot be dismissed.. We all work in the "Dream Industry" and sometime dreams/perceptions more powerful than reality, but still it is not reality..)Let's accept the axiom that nobody is perfect, even ASC Technological Committee, and there is always a room (or soccer field:) for an improvement. And if yours and others perception about ASC formed one way or another, we would like to know what led you to this conclusion. ASC and ASC Technological Committee is a permanently developing and an innately progressive body, which is the unique combination of DPs, technologists, engineers, vendors, manufacturers which is trying very hard to cope not only with the technologicaltsunami, but also with the preserving of the leading role of cinematographer in this process according to its artistic and technical convictions expressed in its (circa 1919) motto : "Loyalty•Progress•Artistry".

Regards,

Yuri Neyman, ASCDirector of Photography,

CEO/Founding

Partner3cP "The Power of Consistency" ™ Team / Gamma and Density Co.™

www.gammadensity.com

3349 Cahuenga Blvd West, Suite 3Los Angeles, CA 90068office

+323-436-7593fax +323-436-7583cell +818-486-4916

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>>I believe it was used for "Mary Poppins" as well as others."

Yup. Developed by the J. Arthur Rank organisation in England and refined for Disney by Ub Iwerks. It was the key travelling matte process used for The Birds too.

Tom Townend,
Cinematographer/London.

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>>The 60mm Apo Macro by Coastal Optics is a start. It's the first lens that I'm aware of to be so well >>corrected from 310 nm all the way to 1100 nm.

Very cool! now we just need another five or six primes, a zoom we like, and a lightweight zoom the Steadicam guys will tolerate - all re- barreled so our assistants can pull focus with them.

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor

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Tim Sassoon wrote :

>> ...The real UV/IR process required a Technicolor 2-strip camera, didn't it? And had the problem of >>essentially a chromatic aberration, that the matte would photograph at a different size than the >>foreground?...
>>And that would be 19 years ago, Rip Van Winkle…

Right, the matte was resized in the optical printer. Only 19 years ago? Seems like yesterday!

Wade K. Ramsey, DP
Dept. of Cinema & Video Production
Bob Jones University
Greenville, SC 29614

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Only 19 years ago? Seems like yesterday!

Tell me about it!

Mark Woods
Director of Photography
Pasadena, California
www.markwoods.com

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Gamma and Density wrote :

>>for more detailed elaboration of your statements regarding" some "in-breeding" ... It is a very serious >>statement, .... what perceptions, observations, personal experience or events described by others, etc., >>led you to the necessity to make such a statement about ASC?

Hi Yuri,

Thanks for your comments. I am sorry if I had sounded a bit harsh. However, digital film and cinematography is a field I feel strongly about after having spent years studying the artistic and filmmaking process mixed with a background in engineering and computer science, and a desire for better pedagogic methods. I shall respond to you personally as I don't want to give an impression of a bandwidth hog on this forum discussing some of my personal background in industry and academia, which has considerable overlap with digital cinema, that led to the statements that I made.

Thanks again for your understanding. I really appreciate that.

Best regards,

DJ Joofa
Imaging Solutions and HD Video
Austin, Texas

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Dj Joofa wrote:

>>Yuri, .... digital film and cinematography is a field I feel strongly about after having spent years studying the >>artistic and filmmaking process mixed with a background in engineering and computer science, and a >>desire for better pedagogic methods. I shall respond to you personally ...

Hi Dj Joofa,

Looking forward to it... Your background promises an interesting exchange of opinions which could be helpful in the understanding of your point of view.

Regards,

Yuri Neyman, ASC
Director of Photography, CEO/Founding Partner
3cP "The Power of Consistency" ™ Team / Gamma and Density Co.™
www.gammadensity.com
office +323-436-7593
cell +818-486-4916

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