Home of Professional Cinematography since 1996

Next book...Vocabulary

Published : 18th July 2010

Hello,

I'm working on my next book, dedicated to high-end 3DTV and Cinema. I realize that we have the same name "Rig" for ...


1 - The mechanical support (like the ET Neutron)
2 - The whole assembly: cameras, support, recorder (like Neutron+2xSI2K+SIdeck)

What suggestions would you have to distinguish them ?

Bernard Mendiburu
Stereographer, Consultant
Los Angeles


How about 'Rigs' for 3D camera supports (quasars, etc) ...and "3D capture solutions" for the entire thing? Sounds a bit like corporate speak, but it does imply more the turnkey solution you were outlining there.

Best

Markus Stone
Head of Production
Inition Asia Pacific


Bernard Mendiburu writes:

>> I realize that we have the same name "Rig" for ...
>> 1 - The mechanical support (like the ET Neutron)
>> 2 - The whole assembly: cameras, support, recorder (like Neutron+2xSI2K+SIdeck)

I would think we can come up with a better name than "rig"...it sounds  like something that got slapped together (which they used to be). But with the high precision engineering on the new  devices, they deserve a better name.

When I looked up synonyms to "rig" I got "apparatus"...when I looked up "apparatus", I got this:
Main Entry: apparatus Part of Speech: noun Definition: equipment with a purpose Synonyms:


accoutrement, appliance, black box, contraption, _device_
(http://thesaurus.com/browse/device) , dingbat, doodad, doohickey, furnishings, gaff, _gear_
(http://thesaurus.com/browse/gear) , gimcrack, gimmick, gizmo, grabber,
habiliments, idiot box, _implement_ (http://thesaurus.com/browse/implement) , jigger, _job_ (http://thesaurus.com/browse/job) *, _machine_
(http://thesaurus.com/browse/machine) , machinery, _means_
(http://thesaurus.com/browse/means) , _mechanism_ (http://thesaurus.com/browse/mechanism) , _outfit_
(http://thesaurus.com/browse/outfit) , _paraphernalia_
(http://thesaurus.com/browse/paraphernalia) , _provisions_ (http://thesaurus.com/browse/provisions) , _setup_ (http://thesaurus.com/browse/setup) , _stuff_
(http://thesaurus.com/browse/stuff) , _supplies_ (http://thesaurus.com/browse/supplies) , _tackle_
(http://thesaurus.com/browse/tackle) , thingamajig, tools, utensils, whatchamacallit, whatsis, whosis, widget

For the device itself, I kind of like Beam Splitter Apparatus...or just  Beam Splitter.
For the side-side device, I've been calling it a 3D Camera Plate

For the whole assembly I've been calling it a "system"..."beam splitter system", etc.

My 2 cents.

Eric P. Bakke
3D DP/DIT
www.hd3dchannel.com


Bernard Mendiburu (prof. lists) wrote :

>> What suggestions would you have to distinguish them ?

How about borrowing some parlance from other camera related devices such as Steadicams and underwater housings?

I like Sled as a term -- it's the thing cameras mount to. Parallel Sled or Beamsplitter Sled. The complete device would be a Unit or System. Side-by-Side Unit, Beamsplitter System.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech


Mitch Gross wrote:

> nt to. Parallel Sled or Beamsplitter Sled. The complete device would be a Unit or System.

I think the horse has left the barn, Elvis has left the building.

Common parlance already calls a rig a rig. It is one syllable, consonants at both ends of the word, and it has been in use for at least the quarter century since I first had to carry a stereo RIG out of a shop and into a truck.

I'm thinking a few of us ain't gonna change it.

In academic theatre, a light is an instrument or luminaire, the glass thing with the filament within it is a lamp...on Broadway, the instrument is a lamp, the globe is a lamp, the ghost light is a lamp, the test light is a lamp...and if you wanna work, you gotta understand the context - "the fourth lamp over on #2E has a bad lamp.:

I'm a thinking that's where it's going to stay in our world too

Mark "I’m just saying" Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor
http://schneiderentertainment.com/dirphoto.htm


Bernard Mendiburu (prof. lists) wrote:

>> I'm working on my next book, dedicated to high-end 3DTV and Cinema.

I tend to lean towards Stereo Apparatus for the side by side or beam splitter 'rigs.' For the cameras, I like the use of Stereo Camera Assembly or SAC (Stereo Assembled Cameras)

Lastly, would be a Stereo Camera System

But could we please drop the 'Master' 'Slave' from our vocabulary. Primary and Secondary work just fine to describe the same function.

Alfeo Dixon
Cinematographer: Operator+Steadicam
Atlanta, GA
www.alfeo.com


Mitch Gross wrote:

>> I like Sled as a term -- it's the thing cameras mount to. Parallel  Sled or Beamsplitter Sled. The

>> complete device would be a Unit or System. Side-by-Side Unit, Beamsplitter System.

Sled would be a bit confusing for 3D work on the steadicam. I do dig the Unit part. But how about unit as being the stereo cameras?

Alfeo Dixon
Cinematographer: Operator+Steadicam
Atlanta, GA


Sled and Unit sounds great to me. Sled even sounds like Slide, and that's what a Sled do; it slide the
camera on axis Rig Makers, does that sound right to you ?
Ooops, Sled makers, does that sound right ?

Is there any chance UNIT would be misunderstood with "second camera unit" as in a feature production credit ?

Bernard Mendiburu/
Stereographer, Consultant
Los Angeles


Alfeo wrote:

>> 'Master' 'Slave' from our vocabulary. Primary and Secondary work just fine to describe the same >>function.

Beg to differ with genlock or sync pulse issues, for instance, master/slave makes it clear that from a control standpoint, there is a driver/driven relationship..."master clock" feeding multiple cameras for instance primary secondary does not, for most people, specifically denote driver/driven and that difference may be subtle but it is critical in  many types of work.

I am about to call my camera tech back right now, in fact to determine  which of my three cameras he is sending me has been tested as the master camera and which two are slaves. I know which one is primary by where  it is pointed. I will know which one is master by its sync pulse.

My car has a master cylinder for braking and another one for clutching... it is not a phrase we are likely to eradicate as long as we have hydraulics.

I will ask that you use IA or Interaxial for camera lens spacing and  leave IO or interocular for the humans watching the movie.

We will probably lose on that one too.... IO is easier to say than IA.... but it is a valid distinction - when working with two camera stereo photographic rigs, systems, sleds, or arrays, we can adjust (except in the case of the new Panasonic prosumer camera) the IA.... changing the IO requires surgery of some sort.

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor
http://schneiderentertainment.com/dirphoto.htm


Mark Wrote;

>>"I think the horse has left the barn, Elvis has left the building...I'm thinking a few of us ain't gonna >>change it."

This is like the term "interocular". "Ocular" refers to the eyes, literally, the distance between the eyes. Whether the correct term for the distance between the cameras should be interaxial, internodal or whatever up for debate, but the fact that 'interocular' has become common parlance makes it a moot point. If you want people understand what you're saying do you use the correct word, or the one they will recognize?

Cheers

Markus Stone
Head of Production
Inition Asia Pacific


I agree with this. I’ve heard people I respect and follow in S3D (as in not new to s3d or just got 'trained' in s3d, but rather doing s3d during the 50s too) say and stress IA instead of IO (or IOD). Generally people seem to recognize Interaxial after being introduced to it once. Seems important
given so many people see S3D Cameras as needing to work like our eyes, example I just finished a pleasant argument against 'animating' (their term)convergence during a shot instead of adjusting IOD, oops damn I mean IAD)

Their reason was that’s the way our eyes work. It took a bit to explain cameras and screen vs our eyes. As for renaming 'rig', that’s a tough one as it’s a term used well outside of the s3d field, good luck convincing the rest of the cinematographers etc.

One thing I’m very thankful for, thank you Bernard, is that you use the term S3D in your book (sorry I only got to chapter 1 to eval for training but was enough to go ahead), S3D I don't expect to catch on with the public, but its caught on in a lot of our field and with vfx and producers and writers critics etc. gets rid of confusion with 3D, CG 3D, and 3D alternatives to stereoscopic.

my 2 krona

Graham D Clark,

phone: why-attempt, s3d phone: fad-take-two
http://www.linkedin.com/in/grahamclark


Mark H. Weingartner wrote:

>> I will ask that you use IA or Interaxial for camera lens spacing and leave IO or interocular for the

>> humans watching the movie.

Agreed. I think getting professionals to use the correct term should be pretty easy. It would help to start by getting the people that make all those iPhone stereo calculator apps to name it correctly.

Rob Engle
3D VFX Supervisor
Los Angeles, CA, USA


Mark Weingartner writes:

>>My car has a master cylinder for braking and another one for clutching... it is not a phrase we are >> likely to eradicate as long as we have hydraulics.

Yes. In hydraulics and pneumatics you have "master" cylinders and "slave" cylinders.

Then there's "Die Meisterzylinder von Nürnberg" (Sorry ... bad opera joke.)

Anyway, "master" and "slave" are fine, IMHO, as long as they're machines, not people.

Markus Stone writes:

>>If you want people understand what you're saying do you use the correct word, or the one they will >>recognize?

I'd say it depends partly on the situation and partly on whether you  have any idea at all what they'll recognize!


Dan Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA


Daniel Drasin wrote:

>>Then there's "Die Meisterzylinder von Nürnberg" (Sorry ...bad opera joke.)

...not to be confused with the rat in New York that was chewing through the valve stems of parked cars. We dubbed him....

....wait for it.......

Deflator Mouse...

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor


> Deflator Mouse

Bat joke!

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA


> Bat joke!

well, to keep it about photography, we finally got a photo of him....with a RODENTstock lens!!!

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor


> with a RODENTstock lens!!!

Reminds me of this : http://shetlopedia.com/J._D._Rattar

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA


If he's "perhaps the most recognised of all Shetland photographers" why are there no photographs of the ponies?

Just asking...

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California


>> If he's "perhaps the most recognised of all Shetland photographers" why are there no

>> photographs of the ponies?

Because the editor thought those shots looked kinda "horsey".

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA


Bernard,

I suppose I think of it this way: we have cameras, they get mounted on a side-by-side rig or a beamsplitter (or mirror) rig, and that "unit" is a stereo camera rig, which some people will shorten down to just "rig".

Kind of like tractor + trailer = tractor trailer, often simply called "big rig" with or without the trailer

Eric Kurland
3-DIY Stereographer
Los Angeles


This issue has come up a lot recently on multi-camera shoots, sometimes with very talented people who just happen to not have much 3D experience. I'm happy to see people in the S3D (*smile*) community talking about it.

During the setup, this is a dramatic recreation of a common scene...

Someone at the monitor to 3D team : "Is camera 3 having a problem?"
3D team to Engineering : "Camera problem or rig problem?"
Engineering to 3D camera team : "Camera 3 is online, video signal looks good"

3D team to Engineering : "Camera #3 is the left camera at position 2, check out cameras #7 & #8."
Engineering to Utilities : "Check the fibre on camera 7".
Utilities to Engineering : "I'm at camera 7 and the fibre here looks good."
Engineering to Utilities : "Not camera position 7, camera position 4."
Utilities : "I thought you said 7?"
Engineering : "Sorry, camera body #7 at camera position 4"
Utilities : (expletive)
Person at monitor : "Why is the camera 4 still messed up?"
3D team, Engineering, Utilities : (expletive).

Some things the folks at 3ality do to help with this... (full disclosure: I work with 3ality and other 3D teams as a freelancer).

camera = camera. Rigs (or Stereoscopic Camera Platforms as some companies like 3ality have started to call them), have 2 cameras. The right camera on a rig is always colour coded red all the way down the chain (lens, cables, hardware, ccus, recorders, etc.)

In a multi-camera live event type show, during the prep, each rig gets a colour so no matter what letter or number eventually gets assigned to that physical rig, the description remains. i.e. "Check left camera, purple rig, at camera position 4"

Sleds (in the 3ality world) are the physical assemblies to which the cameras attach. The sleds then attach to the rigs. Also, as someone noted, if you call a rig a sled, what do you do when you put it on a steadicam? "That sled will never fit on my sled."

It's easier in the narrative world where the rigs are usually assigned letters (at least here in LA). But then there's the question of tracking the actual cameras. Again, colours help.

I also agree that "unit" might get confused with a shooting unit (e.g. second unit, b-unit). Stereo Assembled Cameras would become shortened to SAC which brings out the adolescent humorist in me (as does "unit" for that matter). "Grab your SAC, we're going to shoot some quick b-roll." I couldn't resist.

A very smart 3D friend gently scolded me for saying "I/O" when referring to inter-axial the other day and I'm trying to purge it from my vocab but I learned it from the best and it's hard to change.

Also in play in the wide and varied uses of mix vs. mux, sync/genlock/blackburst, and p vs psf.

Again, good thread!

Matt Blute
LA,CA, mostly S3D stuff of late


>>I'd say it depends partly on the situation and partly on whether you  have any idea at all what they'll >> recognize!

In news package editing the narration and sound bites is still refereed to as A-Roll and the cover video as B-Roll. Now where's the sense in that?

Old habits are tough to break...

Tom McDonnell
Cinematographer/Camera Operator
Los Angeles, CA
New Orleans, LA


Matthew Blute wrote:

>>It's easier in the narrative world where the rigs are usually assigned letters (at least here in LA). >>But then there's the question of  tracking the actual cameras. Again, colours help.

I'm sure the following may have been considered before, but it is good to know why the obvious solution may not work:)

Why not all left eye cameras being identified with even numbers and all right eye cameras being identified by odd numbers, so that if the entire gig were rigged sequentially all one has to do is divide
by two to get the rig or position number.

For instance, if there is a problem with left eye camera position 6 you'll know it is camera 12, problem with right eye camera position 6 would be camera 11.

2D camera positions could be identified with even numbers with no odd number following.

This method doesn't introduce an additional element like colours or letters.

Even Left Odd Right = ELOR or Left Even Right Odd = LERO

Mike Brennan
DP
Melbourne/London


>>Why not all left eye cameras being identified with even numbers and all right eye cameras being >>identified by odd numbers, so that if the entire gig were rigged sequentially all one has to do is >>divide by two to get the rig or position number.

I keep it simpler...I label everything Left and Right or L and R...cameras, cables, etc.

So : Camera 1L, 1R or 7L, 7R.


So all my cables are the same on each end and I don't have to remember what colour or number the Left camera is.


This works well when I hire a new assistant who hasn't learned designations.

Eric P. Bakke
3D DP/DIT
www.hd3dchannel.com


Mark H. Weingartner wrote:

>> with genlock or sync pulse issues, for instance, master/slave makes it  clear that from a control >>standpoint, there is a driver/driven relationship..."master clock" feeding multiple cameras for >>instance

I'm not arguing about the relationship nor the accuracy of the definition. Master/Slave just never sits well in anyone’s mind coming from an ethnic group that was enslaved by the group using the term.

I've jokingly turned a few faces of friends in the business bright red by interrupting them when the term 'slave' was used by saying "...the what!?!" It's just uncomfortable sometimes. Just looking for a bit of understanding on this term.

Since the forum was opened up to vocabulary, I took the opportunity to put it out there.

Directive / Operative
Control / Sync


Alfeo Dixon
Cinematographer: Operator+Steadicam
Atlanta, GA


Mark H. Weingartner wrote:

>> I will ask that you use IA or Interaxial for camera lens spacing and leave IO or interocular for the

>> humans watching the movie.

That one is a given. It's among the big naming mistakes in my first book.

Not the only one.

Steve mentioned "Depth Budget" as another one, confusing money guys. And confusing them is a big no-no in our business. To describe that overall Z space a 3D screen gives us, I'm considering
"Depth Range"

Any better suggestion ?

Bernard Mendiburu/
Stereographer, Consultant
Los Angeles


Graham D Clark wrote:

>> As for renaming 'rig', that’s a tough one as it’s a term used well outside of the s3d field, good luck >> convincing the rest of the cinematographers etc.

CML is the main place where we have a chance to move the boat. Get SMPTE and 3D@home involved and you get a good chance. The point is, do we need a name for sleds and units, rather that rig?


If yes, it'll stick

We'll see.

>>One thing I’m very thankful for, thank you Bernard, is that you use the term S3D in your book

Thank you, and that one was almost trapped. It felt like cutting hairs.

/Bernard Mendiburu/
Stereographer, Consultant
Los Angeles


> "Depth Range"  ..... Any better suggestion ?

KISS - "Depth Limits"?

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA


Mark H. Weingartner wrote:

>> We dubbed him........wait for it.......

> > Deflator Mouse

I heard him bragging that despite the recession he's had a couple of Goodyear’s.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP


>> I've jokingly turned a few faces of friends in the business bright red by interrupting them when the >> term 'slave' was used by saying  "...the what!?!"

Hey, I'm sensitive to the issue - If there is a better way to describe an engineering situation, I am all for it - but the problem - especially in our "hang a blonde over there and kill that baby so we can shoot this "dirty over" and get on to the martini" world is that

we are constantly speaking in short-hand, and if not everyone gets the  short-hand, bad things happen.

I am particularly conscious of this because I seem to work overseas more than in the US, and most of the jargon does not translate.

The broadcast world has had "master clocks" since there has been broadcast, and the driving/driven thing has to be clearly understood in the midst of a conversation - made worse by the fact that many pieces of equipment use the same spigot for sync in or sync out, depending on menu settings to determine which way the signal is going....

I think we do have a responsibility to develop socially acceptable terminology - one of our legacies is the "traditional" parlance that isnot sensitive to much of anybody... and it's worse in German (or used
to be)(don't ask)

We just have to make sure that the precise meaning hidden behind the jargon doesn't get lost in the heat of battle.

I wanted a blonde, not a mighty! I wanted a baby, not a baby!

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor
http://schneiderentertainment.com/dirphoto.htm


I really like depth budget... as we explain this to DPs who are not 3D savvy, the idea that the more you spend at one end, the less you can spend at the other end is a more useful concept than "depth limits" which sound like fixed parameters...

Mark H. Weingartner
VFX Photography & Supervision
+1 818 702 1777
+1 818 970 6833 mobile
http://schneiderentertainment.com/dirphoto.htm


Mark H. Weingartner wrote :

>> If there is a better way to describe an engineering situation, I am all for it

What's wrong with Commander and Follower?

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech


Mitch Gross wrote:

>>What's wrong with Commander and Follower?

too many syllables...whatever you pick, try saying it through a three foot mailing tube and see if it is distinguishable at the other end...

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor


It is common to use the term Lead and Follow on engine synchronizers for boats.

It's unambiguous and so PC.

Tom Tcimpidis
L.A. based USCGA member


>What's wrong with Commander and Follower?

It sounds like the next bad Russell Crowe movie.

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California


> What's wrong with Commander and Follower?

King and Peasant...
President and VP...
Lead and Follow...
Ben and Hur...
Teacher and Student...
Tax and Payer...
Giver and Receiver...

Tom McDonnell
Cinematographer/Camera Operator
Los Angeles, CA
New Orleans, LA


That's a great one-- short, descriptive and accurate.

Steven Bradford
DP / Instructor
Seattle Washington
http://www.3Dstereomedia.com


Very good idea to discuss terminology.

>> Master/Slave

All PC concerns aside, master and slave are so widely used everywhere, that I feel, even if we found a better term, we would fight a losing battle.

>> Depth Budget

Actually, I feel Depth Budget is a pretty good term. I can't think of a better way to convey how you cannot easily exceed this budget in post and how you usually keep it within a certain range.

If the financial guys are confused by this, well maybe that's not a bad thing anyway?

>> BS rig

Why not "mirror rig", at least this is what I use. Beam splitter rig is too much of a mouthful for my German brain. Maybe people will shorten it to M rig and P rig for parallel.... Maybe not.

Cheers,

Lin Sebastian Kayser IRIDAS
CEO Georgenstr. 38
D-80799 Munich
Germany
Tel +49 89 330 35 142
Fax +49 89 330 35 143 www.iridas.com


I really like depth budget... as we explain this to DPs who are not 3D savvy, the idea that the more you spend at one end, the less you can spend at the other end is a more useful concept than "depth limits" which sound like fixed  parameters...

How about "depth charge"?

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech


Hmm-- Isn't Parallel the term we want to use to distinguish between converged and parallel photography?

Both side by side and mirror rigs can shoot parallel or converged.

I don't think of parallel as a type of stereo rig, I think of it as a type of S3D photography.

Steven Bradford
Seattle Washington
http://www.3dstereomedia.com/nw/


Master-Slave is also used in Hard Drive designations...just like Master TimeCode, Master Reference. I'm not offended and have been a slave to this business for many years.

Was 3D Space or Depth Space brought up instead of Depth Budget?

Eric P. Bakke
3D DP/DIT
www.hd3dchannel.com


>> I don't think of parallel as a type of stereo rig, I think of it as a type of S3D photography.

Indeed, of course. Mirror rig and side-by-side rig. No such thing as a parallel rig.

Guess I am still jet-lagged.

Cheers,

Lin Sebastian Kayser


Mitch Gross wrote:

>> How about "depth charge"?

A new budget line item. Is there a "depth credit"?

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP


"Sled" says "Steadicam" to me. Steadicamers have been using that term for decades.

"contraption?"
"device?"
"infernal machine?"
"chassis?"
"juke box?"
"disco ball?"
"claymore?"
"tympani?"
"hot box?"
"aardvark?"


This naming game is fun!

Doug Hart
1AC, NYC


"Cyclops"

M Gadoury
Mtl


>>Is there a "depth credit"?

More likely a "Depth Bailout"...

Tom McDonnell
Cinematographer/Camera Operator
Los Angeles, CA
New Orleans, LA


> How about "depth charge"?

A depth budget is when the 3D movie costs 5-10% more that the 2D A depth charge is when it costs 13.99%* to 26.99%** more *Basic rate computed according to undisclosed formula and subject to change **Maximum rate skyrocketing whenever it please us.

Did you said it was confusing the money guys ?

/Bernard Mendiburu/
Stereographer, Consultant
Los Angeles


I say keep it simple. The actual equipment the cameras are mounted into should be a "rig" and with the cameras and gak it should be a "system" or "acquisition system"

Marque DeWinter
Barnstormer
NY, La, Ma


>> A new budget line item. Is there a "depth credit"?

That would depend on the tax laws in your jurisdiction...


George Hupka
Director/DP, Downstream Pictures
Saskatoon, Canada
Listmum, Cinematography Mailing List


In television production, Sled refers to the build up rig that holds a large box lens and a handheld camera, and which provides the electronic support, view finder, etc. It's a term that has been used for decades.

Tom Tcimpidis
L.A. video truck guy


Let's try and keep it simple, keep the theoreticians out!

What do we call it now?

A rig, master and slave, mirror rig, side by side rig, IO I know! It should
be IA but most people use IO so use IO!!

Convergence, not toe in as some people do.

HIT? Hmm, people use and understand post-convergence, wrong? Sure but it's
easy to understand and communicate.

C'mon folks, let's not be PC and lest use terms that most people will
understand.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based
Skype geoff.boyle
mobile: +44 (0)7831 562877
www.gboyle.co.uk


Geoff Boyle wrote:

> C'mon folks, let's not be PC and lest use terms that most people will understand.

I'm a little disappointed by this Geoff, I would expect a bit more PC  from our leaders, educators and mentors in this industry and you are  all of these weather you accept it or not. Many people come to CML to  learn just as I have and as harsh as some of your statements maybe... I have viewed you just as that, a leader, educator and a mentor

-Alfeo


Cine & Print Photography
Operator+Steadicam
www.alfeo.com
Atlanta


Hello!,

On 21:53 28/4/10, Bernard Mendiburu (prof. lists) wrote:

>I realize that we have the same name "Rig" for ...1 - The mechanical support (like the ET Neutron)

Bare Rig

>2 - The whole assembly: cameras, support, recorder (like

Equipped Rig, or as a set tool: camera, stereo camera, 3d camera

I think "Stereo Aquisition System" is none sense and unproctical in the real world as we do not name film cameras "Moving image acquisition  Systems" either, even if that would be correct. I am a fan of KIASARP (Keep it as simple as reasonably possible)

>What suggestions would you have to distinguish them ?

>"Depth Range"
>Any better suggestion ?

Nope, I think "Depth Range" is a simple, clear (and thus good) choice.

>The point is, do we need a name for sleds and units, rather that rig?

I don't think that new terms are needed. I’m contrast to "Depth Budget", I am not aware of cases where the use of the word "rig" has caused problems. In cases where an S3D rig could be confused with other industry "rigs",  then the term "S3D rig" or "stereo rig" can be used to remedy the risk of
confusion.

Best regards!,


Kommer Kleijn SBC http://www.kommer.com
VFX Cinematographer Brussels, Belgium, Europe
Stereography, Motion Control, Digital Imaging, Large Format


As long as we're rewriting the filmmaking lexicon, can we finally put  "colour timing" out of its misery and scatter its ashes to the four winds?

Dan Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA


>>>can we finally put "colour timing" out of its misery and scatter its ashes to the four winds?

These are terms burned in our brains. They will go away as they fall into disuse. I still roll 30 secs of bars on P2 and data based cameras. Old habits diehard...

Tom McDonnell
Cinematographer/Camera Operator
Los Angeles, CA
New Orleans, LA


Daniel Drasin wrote:

>> As long as we're rewriting the filmmaking lexicon, can we finally put "colour timing" out of its >>misery and scatter its ashes to the four winds?

some of us still time print... on big pictures too, not just odd-ball stuff

Minimize confusion - change only what needs to be changed

+rgb darker
-rgb lighter
+r more cyan
+G more magenta
+GB more red
+CB more cowbell

Mark H. Weingartner
LA-based VFX DP/Supervisor
http://schneiderentertainment.com/dirphoto.htm


>> I'm a little disappointed by this Geoff, I would expect a bit more PC  from our leaders,

Alfeo our world has gone insane on the subject of PC.

I certainly don't want to cause offense generally, you'll know when I dowant to!

It seems to me that taking offense at terms like master/slave is a bit like me objecting to Romans or Normans or Scandinavians because they all at one time or another invaded all or part of my country and enslaved the population.

However! I know that I will never win this one and CML is not the place to debate this.

I just want to use terminology that everyone understands and not to throw out everyday terms that 99% of people not only don't find offensive but don't even notice.

Let's not obfuscate our business, let's do everyone a favour and make terms as clear and simple as we can.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based
Skype geoff.boyle
mobile: +44 (0)7831 562877
www.gboyle.co.uk


Alfeo

>>I'm a little disappointed by this Geoff, I would expect a  bit more PC from our leaders

I come here precisely because it is NOT PC. Gawd save us from that creeping, boring, asepticized world.

Masters & slaves are appropriate terms not only for TC and the  antebellum south. What would the world of S&M do without them?

Perhaps we shouldn't use the word "ovens" for what we cook our food  in since they were used in death camps. Give it a rest will ya.

Language is fecund. Stop trying to sterilize it.

Steven Gruen
Digital Cinematography
Paris, France


Steven Gruen wrote:

>I come here precisely because it is NOT PC. Gawd save us from that creeping, boring, asepticized >>world.

Hello!,

Can anyone please expand "PC" or explain what it means?

Thanks,


Kommer Kleijn SBC

http://www.kommer.com
VFX Cinematographer Brussels, Belgium, Europe
Stereography, Motion Control, Digital Imaging, Large Format


PC = Politically Correct (not Parti Communiste - though there is a similarity in what they consider appropriate)

Best,

Steven Gruen
Digital Cinematography
Paris, France


I'm sorry, I've gotten lost an S3D rig? What does that stand for?
Stereo 3d rig? Is there another kind of stereo rig, other than 3D?

Sorry, I'm just confused by this, thanks.

Also;

Alfeo wrote:

>>> I'm not arguing about the relationship nor the accuracy of the definition. Master/Slave just never >>sits well in anyone’s mind coming from an ethnic group that was enslaved by the group using the >>term.

Yes, but then again, this isn't for the general population, this is a specialized skill. The term is used in Computers (IDE Hard Drives), and in stills photography I believe when dealing with flash units. It is
technical jargon which every industry develops.

In the film business there are many phrases that could be interpreted as  offensive, but they are not intended that way and work well for their purpose. I often use the phrase "hit her/him with the light" which does not mean to drop a lighting unit on the actor, no matter how violent it sounds. Of course the very well used phrase in the "colour correction" suite which in the PC parlance might be said as "Repress the not as well exposed area of the frame, so as to drop that area below 7.5 on the I.R.E. scale, more like to zero, and thus reduce the visible appearance of noise."

Steven Gladstone
New York Based Cinematographer
Gladstone films
http://www.gladstonefilms.com
917-886-5858


Kommer Kleijn wrote:

> Can anyone please expand "PC" or explain what it means?

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
Function: adjective
Date: 1936 Conforming to a belief that language and practices which
could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated.

For a more thorough examination of the nuances of PC, go to :


http://www.answers.com/topic/political-correctness

As has been stated already, eliminating all language that "could offend political sensibilities" is a rather broad and difficult to define mandate – as we are seeing here.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP


Mark H. Weingartner wrote:


> +CB more cowbell

Yes! I have a burning hole in my soul. It's calling, "More cowbell!"

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech


Markus wrote: (not exactly yesterday)


>>"Whether the correct term for the distance between the cameras should be interaxial, internodal or >>whatever ....... the fact that 'interocular' has become common parlance makes it a moot point..."

INTERPUPILLIARY is arguably the term we should impose, by practice, to improve the precision of popular terminology (rather than accepting a degree of dumbing-down by imprecision). Perception is manageable.

Dr. David Woods
MD Holcus Ltd - (where the data for interpupiliary distance - which varies with age, gender and ethnicity - was incorporated in the design of the first THE viewer optics.)

Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
44 (0) 1482 580290


Gruen, S (of Paris, Texas one my imagine) wrote, sophomorically,  presumably hoping for enlightenment :

"I come here precisely because it is NOT PC. Gawd save us from that creeping, boring, asepticized world. Masters & slaves are appropriate  terms not only for TC and the antebellum south...." and
"Language is fecund. Stop trying to sterilize it."

It does not take more than a micron of thought to realize that  employment of some functional terminologies, like the use of slave word,  reifies the simplicities of old prejudicial notions of passive servitude. And THAT's why people of any sensitivity and humanity object.

It's ideas that are fecund, mon vieux. It's words that are entailed to serve them.

There is something pathetic in the spectacle of the pedantic reactionary, aping, unknowingly, and inappropriately, the words of the Welsh bard, Dylan Thomas, when he wrote: "Range rage against the dying of the light."

Woods, D
MD Holcus Ltd
East Yorkshire
44 (0) 1482 580290


> "Range rage against the dying of the light."

"Range rage"? Is that a stereoscopic term? Something about showing depth of  anger?

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA


 David Woods wrote:

>> Dylan Thomas, when he wrote: "Range rage against the dying of the light."

Wow...

Where must I go at this juncture? I was just going to reach out, to my fellows, and ask what we might appropriately call a 1/4 wave retard filter?
I feel a bit abashed (retarded), being a sophistic centrists, unaware in the asking if I even query the proper listing. Would it be more appropriate to list with CML-glass?....

Substituting Range for Rage seems apposite!

Max Penner
CTO/Stereographer
Paradise F.X. Corp.
7011 Hayvenhurst Ave. Suite A
Van Nuys, Ca. 91406
Phone +1.818.785.3100
Mobile +1.310.864.5124
www.paradisefx.com


Max Penner wrote:

>> Where must I go at this juncture? I was just going to reach out, to my fellows, and ask what we >>might appropriately call a 1/4 wave retard filter?

now the cats out of the bag

Graham D Clark, phone: why-attempt, s3d phone: fad-take-two
http://www.linkedin.com/in/grahamclark


> now the cats out of the bag

Not really. Try ordering some.

Eric Deren
Dzignlight Studios
VFX & Animation Design
www.dzignlight.com


Eric Deren wrote :

> Not really. Try ordering some.

yes I'd heard, the bag is empty. good strategy I guess

Graham D Clark,

phone: why-attempt, s3d phone: fad-take-two
http://www.linkedin.com/in/grahamclark


>>Date: 1936 Conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political >>sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated.

I am really offended by the use of the word "sex" in this definition. In most forums, as well as any decent app store, this word would have been censored...

Anyway, back on topic, regarding interocular: Again, I think this term is in such broad use that any attempt to redefine it is moot. And isn't a camera(head) not a kind of oculus as well?

Looking forward to your next book, Bernard. Just don't make us change too many terms in our software again.

Maybe we need a setting that allows you to control the level of political correctness in the application and adjust the terminology accordingly. Level "Relaxed" would be "Master/Slave", Level "Strict" would be "Nudge initiator/Nudge receptor".

Cheers,

Lin Sebastian Kayser
Chief Executive Officer
IRIDAS - www.iridas.com
Tel: +49 89 330 35 142
Fax: +49 89 330 35 143


Eric Deren wrote:

> Not really. Try ordering some.;

There was some for sale at NAB, and it even protect from rain, dust, and  can help fix convergence and rig skew, if used adequately.


Here's the URL of one of the distributor in the US.
http://amzn.to/bRB2wx

/Bernard Mendiburu/
Stereographer, Consultant
Los Angeles


Tom McDonnell writes:

>>These are terms burned in our brains. They will go away as they  fall into disuse.

Reminds me of what they say about scientific progress:

"Science progresses one funeral at a time."

Dan Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA


Mark H. Weingartner writes:

<< some of us still time print... >>

Oh... You mean you measure its duration?

<ducking and running...>

Tim Sassoon writes:

<< "Range rage"? Is that a stereoscopic term? Something about showing depth of anger?

"Budget rage" would be a more common experience.

Dan Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA


Bob Kertesz wrote:

> It sounds like the next bad Russell Crowe movie.

Or close to one that played all weekend on Cable.

Gary Adcock

Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Chicago, USA


Whenever you set up two cameras to match, you ordinarily set one up to the other and the primary camera is usually referred to as the 'hero'.

So instead of Master/Slave why not Hero/Chump ?

Bruce Schultz
F900R/EX1+3/7D
LA-based IATSE 600


Hello!,

Excellent Bruce, excellent.

I spent minutes ROTFL.

Best regards!, thanks,

Kommer Kleijn SBC http://www.kommer.com
VFX Cinematographer Brussels, Belgium, Europe
Stereography, Motion Control, Digital Imaging, Large Format