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class="style16">RED Shutter Angle Question

Published : 9th September 2009


Just shot with the RED. 2 curious questions in regard to the shutter angle...


1. Is it possible to put the shutter angle in film friendly terms? like degrees? it’s kind of annoying that at 24fps, we set the camera to 1/50, what concerns me is that at 24fps. I am adding a 1/50 shutter affect, and it’s not really 180 deg.


2. This was curious too...we are in 3k 2:1 mode. latest build 17, I’m guessing? anyway, we are at 24fps, 1/50 shutter, then change camera to 50fps, and the camera still says 1/50??? we did reset to 1/100 assuming that was correct, god willing it was. but I was curious if there was a way to lock that shutter to be at, for arguments sake 180 deg, unless I want to change it?

Do you need to baby sit the shutter for every frame rate change?


Jim Matlosz
DP, la ca



>> 1. Is it possible to put the shutter angle in film friendly terms? Like degrees?


Shutter can be displayed in either fractions of a second or degrees on the GUI. You can select which one in System -> Setup -> Preferences -


>> Display -> Shutter. but I was curious if there was a way to lock that shutter to be at, for arguments sake >>180 deg


If you operate the shutter in "Relative" mode, then the shutter speed will follow the frame rate just like a film camera, i.e., if you set the shutter to 1/48 or 180 degrees when you're at 24fps, then change to 48fps, the shutter speed will change to 1/96 or 180 degrees. You select this in Sensor -> Shutter -> Mode.


Derth Adams
Operator/DP
Los Angeles, CA



If you operate the shutter in "Relative" mode, then the shutter speed will follow the frame rate just like a film camera, i.e., if you set the shutter to 1/48 or 180 degrees when you're at 24fps, then change to 48fps, the shutter speed will change to 1/96 or 180 degrees. ?You select this in Sensor -> Shutter -> Mode.


Derth Adams
No babysitting needed...A good tech helps too...


Good luck,


Dane Brehm
310.710.2658
DIT : Data Supervisor
Phantom | Red | Codex



Re part 1 about the shutter angle, it's possible in the menu (though I don't have my cheat sheet in front of me, so I can't say exactly where off the top of my head) to have the shutter angle in degrees on the red onboard and in the viewfinder at the top of the screen. It won't show it in the menu, and I've never been able to have it show on the display on the back.


Re part 2 (speed and shutter angle), I'm not sure; the only time I've dealt with shooting at odd speeds, the tech was SO possessive of the camera (he owned it) that I couldn't tell, as he set everything so quickly that I could not learn if that's a normal behavior.


Brad Greenspan
LA-based 1st AC
Have passport, will travel



To change the display on the on-board from 1/sec to Degrees...
System-> Set up-> Preferences-> Display
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? |
??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Degrees / 1/sec


Unfortunately on the rear LCD to change the Shutter it’s still in 1/seconds.
1/48 = 180
1/96 = 90
1/192 = 45
1/384 = 22
1/768 = 11


Good luck,


Dane Brehm
310.710.2658
DIT : Data Supervisor
Phantom | Red | Codex



>>Unfortunately on the rear LCD to change the Shutter it’s still in 1/ seconds.
>>1/48 = 180


Hi Dane, did they fix the bug where it says 1/48 for 180 degrees, even if you're at different frame rates than 24?
Thanks,


Graham Futerfas
Director of Photography
Los Angeles, CA
www.GFuterfas.com



Yes. Red did you have three modes for the shutter.
Normal : Shutter speed is set but Shutter Setting.
Syncro : Shutter speed is set by Shutter setting but adjusted by Syncro Setting.
Relative : Shutter speed is set but modified by Capture Setting ( FPS)


Most folks have it set on Normal or Relative. I have gotten a few ACs who were thrown off by a red 360deg shutter icon when at 48fps.


The key to shutter speed is the sensor is defined by scan timing, so if you set the shutter at 180deg then switch to over-crank the sensor needs to adjust its "scan" time to get the fps and shutter speed (motion blur) you want.


Good luck,


Dane Brehm
310.710.2658
DIT : Data Supervisor
Phantom | Red | S.Two



OK so Derth says yes... Brad says no and Dane is in between,


I guess I’ll have my DIT look into it, next time we have our hands on a body... so Derth does this application GUI work for all builds? Like Graham pointed out is it corrected on the back panel for all builds?


Thanks guys. Please if there is a definitive answer can we stick with that, and not contradict, as a DP, who must be fully confident my camera is doing what it should do, I don’t like to second guess myself, it kills creativity a bit.


Thanks.


Jim Matlosz
DP, LA, CA



>> OK so Derth says yes... Brad says no and Dane is in between,


I don't think we're technically contradicting one another, just each describing pieces of a larger whole, like that Indian parable about three blind guys describing an elephant by feel.


There are, as Dane said, three shutter modes. It sounds like you were in "Normal" mode during your shoot, where shutter speed and frame rate are separately set. To get the shutter speed to chase frame rate, you need to be in "Relative".


You can choose to display shutter speed in degrees, but it only shows up this way on the GUI, meaning the graphical overlay in the EVF and Red LCD. When you change shutter speed in the menus it's always input in fractions of a second.


This is the way it's set up in Build 17, not sure about previous ones.
Derth Adams
Operator/DP
Los Angeles, CA



Mmmmmmmmmmmm Nice……..
He definitely gets it well done
Warmest


Riki Butland GBCT
Director/DoP
To View showreel
http://web.mac.com/rikibutland
Dubai Mobile - +971507258068
UK Mobile - +447975982149



>> You can choose to display shutter speed in degrees, but it only shows up this way on the GUI, meaning >>the graphical overlay in the EVF and Red LCD. When you change shutter speed in the menus it's always >>input in fractions of a second.


So we're in agreement, just to set the record straight.


Brad Greenspan
LA-based 1st AC
Have Passport, Will Travel



I concur.
Authentication complete.
The rear LCD won't be in degree's in Build 18 or beyond for RedOne.
Unless RED wants to prove me wrong...


Dane Brehm
310.710.2658
DIT : Data Supervisor
Phantom | Red | S.Two



Jim,


If your camera displays 1/50 something tells me you have one CRUCIAL setting set wrong (assuming you're shooting in the U.S.) Your base frame rate is set to 25fps instead of 23.98. NEVER change the base frame rate if you're not going PAL/NTSC.


You can set your shutter to film style setting by doing the following:


Sensor : Shutter : Mode: Relative
System : Setup : Shutter : Degrees
Your shutter will now act as a film shutter would.


Hope that helps
Florian Stadler, D.P., L.A.
www.florianstadler.com



For more info see page 24 of the Operation Manual (available here: http://www.red.com/support ).


D. Gregor Hagey
DP
Toronto



Following up here, so it does show up on back panel only in degrees.
NOTE TO RED: change that its stupid!! only video people want that kinda crap.
Florian thanks for the heads up, I was actually shooting at 24fps, I assumed that 1/50th was basically the same as 1/48th, what is a degree or 2 among friends, however with that said... do you see an issue with shooting 24fps at 1/50th as opposed to 1/48th?


1/50th would essentially give me a 172.82 deg shutter correct?


Thanks guys.


Jim Matlosz
Dp, La, Ca



1/50th would essentially give me a 172.82 deg shutter correct?
?Correct.
The Difference between 1/48th and 1/50th could be the amount of flicker you may or may not have from certain sources.


Good luck,


Dane Brehm
310.710.2658
DIT : Data Supervisor
Phantom | Red | S.Two
Presently on Cougar Hunting
Aspen, Colorado


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