To Push Or Not To Push

I get a late call last night for a shoot today. The producer decides instead of shooting with a PD-150 he wants to shoot film. After I pick myself off the floor I said great! He tells me this will be used for promo/behind the scenes/ making of a cd type DVD for a local Foxtrot orchestra that is really very good. It was a live recording event of their next CD. The room had people dancing, laughing a great time. The problem, I was getting T1.4's in the bright areas and T1.0's and lower in the dark areas. Producer and band leader would not allow additional lighting.

So I said screw it and shot 7218 wide open T2.1 at 24fps. T2.1 is the fastest lens I have. Of course now after wrapping and feeling pretty cocky I am now having a case of the "oh shit what did I just do" blues! So now I'm thinking push the film a stop in the soup or just let telecine have a go at it?

I'm really confident the 7218 will come through for me but will I gain anything by a one stop push with these new films? More than likely I'll be transferring on a well maintained Rank and not a Spirit. I will also be transferring the full S-16 gate.

Thoughts??? Opinions???

Tom McDonnell
DP/Operator
New Orleans, La

Transfer on a Spirit and relax...

I certainly wouldn't push in these circumstances.

It seems to me that in an electronic post situation all pushing does is bring up grain.

Gain wound up in TK will do just as well.

Only thing is it's so long since I've done this on a Rank that I can't remember how well it will handle it, certainly not as well as a Spirit.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based
www.cinematography.net

Geoff Boyle wrote:

> Transfer on a Spirit and relax

The cost differential will probably be about the same as the pushing...

Jeff "push-me, pull-you" Kreines

Geoff Boyle wrote :

> Transfer on a Spirit and relax

I agree with Geoff...

We usually do transfers on a Spirit but because of scheduling conflicts recently had to use a Rank instead. It was a 16mm negative but the difference between the two was pretty noticeable in the area of grain. With the Spirit, a correctly exposed negative, destined for the small screen, you can almost get 16mm to look like 35 (almost).

With the Rank you're going to get more grain and in addition some noise when you increase the gain. If you can afford the Spirit it will give you the results you want without noise or the increase in grain. In any case whether you can swing the Spirit or not, with either telecine you should be able to make up for minor exposure problems without having to push the neg in the soup.

Dominic H. White
Director/Editor/Etc./Etc.
New York

Jeff Kreines writes :

>The cost differential will probably be about the same as the pushing...

I did think that but then though "Nah, that's a UK thing"

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based
www.cinematography.net

Geoff Boyle wrote :

>>Gain wound up in TK will do just as well.

>>Only thing is it's so long since I've done this on a Rank that I can't >remember how well it will handle it, certainly not as well as a Spirit.

One other thought...while we were doing the session on the Rank for a few shots we seriously increased the gain and reduced the chroma to give our normally processed negative a pseudo-bleach bypass look.

It did pick up some noise, but obviously this was a pretty extreme case. So if our negative survived this brutal of a gain boost without an offensive level of noise, your neg shouldn't have a problem at all.

Dominic H. White
Director/Editor/Etc/Ect

>>The cost differential will probably be about the same as the pushing

>>I did think that but then though "Nah, that's a UK thing"

Of course the real question is whether there is a Spirit room in NOLA ?

Mark Smith

>>Of course the real question is whether there is a Spirit room in NOLA ?

Like there's a Rank room in NOLA?

Jeff "well, maybe there is, but I have my doubts" Kreines

Jeff Kreines wrote :

>>Like there's a Rank room in NOLA?

Sorry, here in NYC there are spirit rooms on every corner opposite the Starbucks.

I wasn't sure about the situation in NOLA

Mark Smith

So assuming that you HAVE to use a Rank, would the consensus still be to not push?

I don't shoot a lot of 16, but I recently shot some 7218 and it was transferred on a Rank. Overall I was very pleased, but then again, I know from experience that from this particular Rank I had the same "grainoise" (TM) from EXR50 as I did from 7218.

George Hupka
Director/DP
Downstream Pictures
Saskatoon, Canada

>>Of course the real question is whether there is a Spirit room in NOLA ?

Ha Ha Ha! Now that's funny!

Closest thing to a telecine here in NO was an old RCA film-chain. Scratches were included no extra charge.

The only film transfer going on here is by the pimply kid at the local camera shop.

After having a long detailed discussion with the lab the decision was to push the film a stop and transfer on their Ursa. I don't have the money to get on a Spirit. Even after the push it will still cost less than the Spirit by itself. I'm only talking 2 rolls here.

To be continued...

Tom McDonnell
DP/Operator
New Orleans, La

>>After having a long detailed discussion with the lab the decision was to >push the film a stop and transfer on their Ursa.

Please do let us know how it turns out!

Art Adams, DP [film|hdtv|sdtv]
Mountain View, California - "Silicon Valley"
http://www.artadams.net/

I likewise would probably not push process, but rather trust your colorist to give you the tone scale and shadow detail you want. The slightly softer "toe" of the 18 will really "see" into those shadows unless you were really several stops in the dark for exposure. With several stops of underexposure, you may need to trade some of that shadow detail for darker blacks that will help hide any increase in graininess.

John Pytlak
EI Customer Technical Services
Research Laboratory, Building 69
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, New York 14650-1922 USA
http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

>>I likewise would probably not push process, but rather trust your colorist >to give you the tone scale and shadow detail you want.

Hi John,

The lab and I had a very long chat about this. They see a lot of 7218 and pushed 7218. The collective opinion of the colorist and lab tech was 7218 handles pushing with very little degradation and all the benefits. My exposure was right at 1 stop under and then into a pitch black bottomless pit save for practical lamps in the shot from time to time.

The opinion was if you push the neg then you move the mid-tones off the toe allowing for some real blacks not milky blacks and then make up for the grain increase with noise/grain reduction. I have seen 7218 with a 1/2 stop push and it looked great. I'll let you all know what happens. I'll get all the details on what telecine was used. I'm transferring to Beta-SP so that may wipe a bit of the grain edge off also.

Since I do want a non-staged doc look I'm not TOO concerned. I remember a few shots in the doc "The War Room" that were practically solid black with a few hints of light here and there. My stuff is nowhere near that dark.

Thanks for all the input.

Tom McDonnell
DP/Operator
New Orleans, La