Arri SR Magazines

Hi all

Ok, this is rather embarrassing...but here it goes :

Today, I managed to load an SR magazine without actually closing the feed side door. I turned the latch, and the door appeared to be closed, but upon reloading the camera with a fresh mag, the feed side door of the spent mag popped open...horrified looks all around...and no time for a reshoot as the daylight was dying fast...

My question :

Has anybody had a similar experience with an SR magazine? Was the footage usable, or am I doomed to a reshoot here?

Thanks much,

Franco Krattiger
NYC / Zurich
Filmmaker

Franco wrote :

>today, I managed to load an SR magazine without actually closing the >feed side door.

Greetings Franco,

Classic case, happens often. Have you put any tape (as the one identification tape from the Kodak can) from the feed side all the way across the top to the take up side? If Yes, your footage might be alright, but you may have some light leak at the beginning of every take. If no tape chances are slim.

Happened to me on my first Arri SR2 job years ago, fortunately on the take up side and prior to shoot so managed to correct it but this accident reminds me every time I have to load an SR mag.

Very important when loading SR mag whilst still in the changing bag, after closing the cover, really pull hard on the lid itself. Those locks often don't work properly. Then tape around the mag.

Hope this helps

Regards

Emmanuel from Munich

Emmanuel wrote :

>Classic case, happens often. Have you put any tape (as the one >identification tape from the Kodak can) from the feed side all the way >across the top to the take up side?

Hi Emmanuel

Unfortunately, I didn't tape the magazine. I was hoping somebody would tell me some wild story about how their footage was okay, despite this mishap...wishful thinking, I guess...thanks for your response, I'm bracing for the call from the lab...

Cheers,

Franco Krattiger
NYC / Zurich
Filmmaker

Franco wrote :

>>unfortunately, I didn't tape the magazine. I was hoping somebody would >tell me some wild story about how their footage was okay, despite this >mishap...

Well, here's one. It wasn't an SRII (although I've had the same thing happen on an SRII, fortunately before the shoot began). This was with a Maurer mag, similar to a Mitchell, with 2 big round lids that screw onto the mag. My assistant was unloading the exposed 300' we had filmed of a glass shot on a scene that involved about 1200 extras. We had only that one day to shoot with all the extras and this was the cover shot. We'd built about 400' of walls 14' high to serve as the first floors of the building surrounding a town square and the glass painting extended them several more stories. We were on location, using a travel trailer with blacked out windows for a loading room.

The asst. had just lifted the lid entirely off the exposed side when some kid who didn't know what was going on forced the flimsy lock on the door and popped it open. The asst., was looking at the roll of exposed film. He yelled, slammed the lid back over the film chamber and the kid slammed the door shut. Like you, we just waited for the call from the lab. Never came. All we lost was the outside 5' or so and a bit of edge fog that didn't get into the picture area.

This was ECO, EI 25, so that was in our favor. So I'd say it depends on how fast your film is, how much ambient light there was, and the length of the fogging time. You might have usable scenes in mid roll.

As Emmanuel mentioned, after loading any mag, in the dark, always try to pry open the lid with your fingernails after locking it to be sure it is latched, then tape the mag (good idea anyway, some mags leak.) You don't even have to have fingernails on the SR mags. Just lift the mag by the turn latch itself. If not latched it will lift the lid open. On NPR mags it is possible to actually latch the lid while the front edge of it is not engaged. Run your fingernails all around the lid to see if it will spring up.

Let us know what the results were.

Wade K. Ramsey, DP
Dept. of Cinema & Video Production
Bob Jones University
Greenville, SC 29614

>>Has anybody had a similar experience with an SR magazine? Was the >footage usable, or am I doomed to a reshoot here?

I'd suggest sending your footage to the lab and having them process but not print it. They should be able to look at the negative and see if anything's obviously wrong. That way you'll at least save some money if you do need to reshoot it. But if the mag was open for a long period of time, longer than a split second, you may be in trouble. The good news is that the door stayed reasonably closed as best you know. There's always a chance you're okay.

I did that once too, years and years ago. Fortunately the mag door popped open before the mag went on the camera.

I had another experience where someone backed a grip truck into the camera truck and bounced me out of the darkroom with an open BL mag on the bench. I think the stock was 5295, and the light in the truck was fairly dim. I leaped back into the darkroom and put the lid on the mag, and then raced inside to tell the first assistant. The footage went straight to the lab and turned out to be edge fogged only. Nothing was lost.

Sorry I can't offer you words of encouragement; I just wanted to let you know that you're not the only one that has happened to. I can guarantee, though, that it will never happen to you again. There's a reason camera assistants are paranoid. Ever since I've always pulled hard on the mag doors before I took a mag into the light.

>>As Emmanuel mentioned, after loading any mag, in the dark, always try >to pry open the lid with your fingernails after locking it to be sure it is >latched, then tape the mag (good idea anyway, some mags leak.)

I would pull on the doors, then run my hand around the mag if I'd loaded it in the changing bag just to make sure I didn't get changing bag material caught when I closed a door.

The other nasty thing that happens with those mags is that beginners can forget to clip the end of the film onto the collapsible core. I did that a couple of times. It was awkward when the camera rolled and I could hear the film start to crinkle inside the mag. Naturally the DP heard it loudest of all and was not pleased.

Art Adams, DP [film|hdtv|sdtv]
San Francisco Bay Area - "Silicon Valley"
http://www.artadams.net/
Local resources : http://www.artadams.net/localcrew

>> clip the end of the film onto the collapsible core

Oh no, that's a fundamental mistake.

If you use a collapsible core then you have to put a real core in before you send the film to the lab.

You can't?

Neither can they.

So your film ends up being made up into a bigger roll and in the process it's wound off a spindle bouncing back and forth and damaging you footage.

The guys in the labs making up those rolls work under huge pressure and can't slow down because you haven't got a core in a roll.

Their approach is, you didn't care, why should they.

Don't ever use the collapsible cores.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based
www.cinematography.net

Geoff writes :

>>Don't ever use the collapsible cores.

What was Arri thinking when they designed them. Never understood that.

Jeff Kreines

Jeff wrote:

>>Don't ever use the collapsible cores.

>>What was Arri thinking when they designed them. Never understood >that.

Well, at least they were an improvement over the older 35mm Mitchell collapsible cores, that didn't even have a positive clip to grip the film.

Wade K. Ramsey, DP
Dept. of Cinema & Video Production
Bob Jones University
Greenville, SC 29614

>>Don't ever use the collapsible cores.

I did for my entire camera assistant career (about five years, 1987-1992).
No one ever told me not to, no one ever complained, we never had any problems with the lab as far as I knew.

The first complaint I've ever heard about it is here. Fortunately I'm not loading film anymore.

Art Adams, DP [film|hdtv|sdtv]
San Francisco Bay Area - "Silicon Valley"

>>The first complaint I've ever heard about it is here.

But this is not the first time it has been here. Some time in the past I remember almost exactly the same sequence of messages. I think I might have mentioned the lab issue, and Geoff came in to support the argument then, as now. It's wonderful what a short spell working in the lab does for operators' understanding of some of these thing. It should be compulsory.

That said, _good_ lab techs don't have too much difficulty slipping a core into a coreless roll of unprocessed film, provided it was wound well in the camera, and provided it hasn't been flattened at all as a result of rough shipment. If that's the case though, then there are likely to be cinch marks on the roll before it even reaches the lab. And in any case, who says you'll get a _good_ lab tech, and who says that the extra time taken to do this won't result in something else having to be rushed.

Being a minute late with a loaded magazine on set may be bad, but it pales into insignificance compared with missing a change on the processing machine by a minute.

Dominic Case
Atlab Australia

>>No one ever told me not to, no one ever complained, we never had any >problems with the lab as far as I knew.

No one ever would complain.

The labs i.e. the lab management, would tell you it didn't happen, they didn't have to deal with the realities.

I bet you learned that the ends of rolls were "dirtier" or "liable to scratching" or some other phrase.

It doesn't have to be that way

>>provided it hasn't been flattened at all as a result of rough shipment

The problem that I always found was that the centres had loosened so much that it really was damn near impossible to get a core back in and anyway the reality of the situation was I had a hungry machine to feed and I couldn't spare the time.

I'd rather risk end of roll damage to some material than have a SIB !

Oh and Dominic is absolutely right, lab experience is essential for a DP, it should be compulsory, and now you need to add TK and compositing.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based
www.cinematography.net

Geoff writes:

>>I'd rather risk end of roll damage to some material than have a SIB !

Of course that's the head of the roll as shot.

>>Oh and Dominic is absolutely right, lab experience is essential for a DP, >it should be compulsory, and now you need to add TK and compositing

Not to mention camera design... and manufacture.

Just like the very old days...

Jeff "currently racking up a paper print of a 1903 Melies film" Kreines

Geoff Boyle wrote :

>>You can't?

>> Neither can they.

It is actually very easy. You just have to do it immediately. Really not a problem putting a core in.

I tried never to send film to the lab without a core. Sometimes it happened.

Steven Gladstone
New York Based D.P.
www.gladstonefilms.com
East Coast CML List administrator

>>Really not a problem putting a core in.

Still, thank goodness they've invented digital cameras so we won't have to worry about things like that any more

Dominic Case
Atlab Australia

Dominic Case wrote:

>>Still, thank goodness they've invented digital cameras so we won't have >to worry about things like that any more

Gee, perhaps we should work on cores for the Kinetta... digicores?

Of course, we do have a few other interesting film-like artefacts up our sleeves.

And our film recorder uses cores...

Jeff "liked the old days when there were cores of all colors" Kreines

Jeff Kreines wrote :

>> Jeff "liked the old days when there were cores of all colors" Kreines

I've still got a stash of Reverse keyed Mitchell cores.

Steven Gladstone
New York Based D.P.
www.gladstonefilms.com
East Coast CML List administrator

Steven Gladstone wrote :

>> I've still got a stash of Reverse keyed Mitchell cores.

And I've got a stash of Mitchell’s!

Jeff "one leaves next week on the first shipping Kinetta 4K film recorder" Kreines

Hi all

Here's an update on my magazine mishap : the footage is salvageable...
There's some intermittent damage in between takes, but the takes themselves are alright!

I can't believe the good luck we've had with this and I'll be sure to make an offering on the altar of the film gods asap...

Cheers,

Franco Krattiger
NYC / Zurich
Filmmaker

>>There's some intermittent damage in between takes, but the takes >themselves are alright!

Sweet! Congratulations.

In situations like that there's always hope. The best part is... you'll never make that mistake again. It's one of those mistakes everyone has to make once, and you're all done with that one!

Art Adams, DP [film|hdtv|sdtv]
San Francisco Bay Area - "Silicon Valley"

>> you'll never make that mistake again.

You can take that to the bank...!

Thanks much to all who replied...

Franco Krattiger
NYC / Zurich
Filmmaker

Art Adams writes :

>>Fortunately I'm not loading film anymore.

Just be glad you've never had to can a much too-loosely-wound 1200-ft roll of 16mm from a Mitchell mag in a changing bag on the hood of a black car on a sweltering summer day on the grounds of a state mental hospital under the scrutiny of a group of curious patients who couldn't for the life of them figure out what was going on.

Dan "fortunately I'm not loading film anymore, either" Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA

>>under the scrutiny of a group of curious patients who couldn't for the life >of them figure out what was going on.

I'm sure you explained it all quite well later that evening in "group".

Art Adams, DP [film|hdtv|sdtv]
San Francisco Bay Area - "Silicon Valley"

>>Just be glad you've never had to can a much too-loosely-wound 1200-ft >roll of 16mm from a Mitchell mag in a changing bag on the hood of a >black car on a sweltering summer day

I'll load film

Jacob D. Tober
Phoenix, Az 85023

>>Just be glad you've never had to can a much too-loosely-wound 1200-ft >roll of 16mm from a Mitchell mag in a changing bag on the hood of a >black car on a sweltering summer day...

Certainly not me. But I did have to rescue the exposed 16mm. neg from a 400' roll jammed relatively tight inside a Bolex, in a small black changing bag, under the heavy Spanish August noon Sun, no shadow (my - ejem! - "camera assistant" "missed in action" in that very moment - there was a camera problem, so he went away), all over rocky ground. The damn stuff gets pretty sticky at the oven temperature that builds up inside the bag in those circumstances.

So I see what you mean.

Arturo Briones-Carcaré
Filmmaker
Madrid (Spain)

Arturo Briones Carcaré wrote:

>>(my - ejem! - "camera assistant" "missed in action" in that very moment - >there was a camera problem, so he went away),

From Spain, Hmm. I think I worked with him in New York. Now I know why he left Spain.

Steven Gladstone
New York Based D.P.
www.gladstonefilms.com
East Coast CML List administrator