Digital_Intermediates

Digital Intermediates

How much will a DI cost for 90 minute 35mm film? Where are the most reasonable and best places to go for a DI. What should we look out for?

Marty "I am the ferret" Fromer
Producer
Los Angeles CA

Quote that I got in December for a 100 minute film including scan and all deliverables was around $150K.

There's a lot about this in the archives and you mat want to do a search there.

One thing to look out for is are they quoting a DI finish or a HD one?

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based
www.cinematography.net

Geoff Boyle wrote :

>One thing to look out for is are they quoting a DI finish or a HD one?

The reality in the U.S. is that most all independent films are being quoted and finished through an HD path.

They just don't have the money to go the 2K route. Another thing to look out for ( I believe more important) is the actual color correct time allocated, I've been told by numerous Producers (not DP's) that the color correct should only take a certain amount of time. Some have told me they were going to have their editors do the color correct.

I was told by one producer that he should be able to finish the grading for his 100 minute feature in one day!! Good luck.

No matter what the route I believe a professional grading is a must, this has been a basic in the photo chemical process for years and years, wouldn't be up for discussion.

Vinny Hogan
Cineworks-Miami

>>One thing to look out for is are they quoting a DI finish or a HD one?

>>The reality in the U.S. is that most all independent films are being >quoted and finished through an HD path.

What do you mean by HD? Is that just resolution or is it also colour space(8bit 4:2:2)? What about HDSR from Sony. In Norway we do DI on features and commercials with Arriscan, Lustre, Nucoda and Arrilasers(out of house). Our delivery format to the recording facility is dpx files 1920x? (It depends on the format).

For DI it is important to know that it is not faster, but you have more tools to adjust you images. If you want a good result, you must go to a place where they know, and can prove to you that what you see on the digital projector, is what you see on your print.

Grading a full feature on one day is madness(or the DP is so marvellous that you just do one printer light adjustment on the whole movie, and then you don't need DI.

In DI, as in the rest of life, colour space is important.

Regards

Bjørn H. Brudeli
Technical Manager
The Chimney Pot Oslo AS /Drylab AS
Drammensveien 130
0277 OSLO

Bjørn H. Brudeli writes :

>>What do you mean by HD? Is that just resolution or is it alsocolour >space(8bit 4:2:2)?

My main concern, as always, would be with colour space and compression.

The HDCam SR format would be fine, although I'd want to use it in a mode that is only available on the portable, 4:4:4.

Whilst I do know of people grading movies in 2 days my own experience shows that you should allow 1 hour per minute of screen time.

This allows you to go back and alter things as you get into the film and believe me! you WILL want to go back and make alterations

It isn't enough time to get silly with the grade either

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based

HDCam SR should be avoided as much as possible for DI, at least as long as you work on film not HD. It has an awful compression (not very visible to the eye, but still far from uncompressed quality).

More information on the HDCam SR can be found at:

http://www.chromeimaging.com/forums/showthread.php

?t=213&highlight=sony

However it is a good tool for archiving, although a data archiving system will keep maximum quality.

We are going to present a DI workflow that compares processing of data from DPX files (2K/4K scans), digital capture from HiDef camera (Viper & Cinealta) and HDCam SR in March in Geneva/Switzerland. If anyone is interested, please let me know.

Dan Tatut
CEO
CHROME Imaging
40 Rue de la Coulouvrenire
http://www.chrome-imaging.com

Dan Tatut writes :

>>HDCam SR should be avoided as much as possible for DI, at least as >long as you work on film not HD. It has an awful compression (not very >visible to the eye, but still far from uncompressed quality).

That's why I mentioned the portable machine, it has a double data rate mode that only uses 2.7 compression.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based

>>that's why I mentioned the portable machine, it has a double data rate >mode that only uses 2.7 compression.

Are you saying the little portable recorder is a better machine than the big studio one, with more features? Does that make sense?

David Mullen, ASC
Los Angeles

Here is the Sony HDCam SR FAQ we have on our forum:

What does the SR stand for?

Superior Resolution

Will the SRW-5000 record and playback HDCAM tapes?

HDCAM playback is a standard feature, but the SRW-5000 will not record the HDCAM format.

Does HDCAM SR pre-filter the signal before compression like HDCAM?

No – The full bandwidth signal hits the MPEG4 Studio Profile compression algorithm.

Is this a 10 bit format?

Yes.

What is the data write rate to tape?

Video rate to tape is 440Mbps.
The total data rate to tape, both Video and Audio equals approximately 600Mbps.
Metadata and Audio information is uncompressed.

What is the compression ratio?

In 4:2:2 recording the compression ratio 2.7/1
In 4:4:4 recording the compression ratio is 4.2/1

Which field/frame rates can the ]SRW-5000 record?

The SRW-5000 records and plays back the following field/frame rates:
- @1080i: 50, 59.94 Hz
- @1080PsF: 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97 and 30 Hz
- @720P: 59.94 Hz

Why MPEG4 SP?

MPEG 4 SP (studio profile) is a state of the art algorithm that is universally accepted, and provides visually loss-less recording of full bandwidth images. Using both intra-frame and intra-field compression for progressive and interlace recording, respectively, MPEG 4 SP employs both DCT ( Discrete cosine transform) and DPCM (differential pulse code modulation) compression to ensure the best compression application for each type of recording.

Does HDCAM SR record data?

It is recording 1920 x 1080 Log Data from a Digital Cinema camera (e.g. Viper or Cinealta), but it is not recording DPX files or other common data formats. It is a video recorder.

How many audio channels are there and how is the audio sampled?

There are 12 channels of audio recorded uncompressed at 24bit 48Hz sampling.

Can you record Metadata to the audio channels?

Yes - each channel is capable of recording AES/EBU non-audio data.

Is there a video ancillary allocation for metadata recording?

There are three HD lines per field (roughly 1056 Bytes per field).

Why another videotape format?

Because the production community asked for it, and because it will benefit the industry in general. HDCAM SR meets the production demand for higher bandwidth image capture and helps bridge the gap between acquisition and Digital Intermediate workflows by providing full bandwidth RGB for ingest to the process. The fact that RGB images can now be stored real time in a cost effective and time efficient manner, will benefit the industry in general by opening many doors for higher quality composite effects, and film to tape archiving.

Is there a field unit for HDCAM SR?

Yes – The SRW-1 is available.

This unit provides the same recording functions as the SRW-5000 but is not as complete as the studio deck features. In addition to the same 440 Mbps record capability offered by the SRW-5000, the SRW-1 is providing 2 times speed recording for the purposes of 3D stereo 422 recording. In this mode the unit is recording two independent 422 signals at 440 Mbps with full error correction applied to both signals. Additionally, the 2 times speed record mode is recording RGB signals at 880 Mbps. This yields a compression ratio of approximately 2/1 in 4:4:4.

How can I use an SRW1 880Mbps recording?

This high level of image capture in 4:4:4 recording is intended for digital intermediate ingest from an SRW1 playback to a system server. Stereoscopic 4:2:2 recordings will be either ingested in like fashion or recorded to two separate SRW-500 decks for post.

How robust are these machines – what type of head life can I expect?

The tape transport used in HDCAM SR is very similar to the ones used in HDCAM and Digital Betacam. These formats have proven reliability, and the design experience gained over the last twenty has been applied to HDCAM SR. Head life is about 3000 hours.

Does HDCAM SR use the same tape as HDCAM?

No – A new formula tape has been created with metal particles that are approximately half the size of HDCAM. This allows for a much higher density recording layer that provides an additional 6 dB of signal saturation.

Dan Tatut
CEO
CHROME Imaging

>>Are you saying the little portable recorder is a better machine than the >big studio one, with more features? Does that make sense?

It specifically has the ability to record 2 signals at 4:2:2 or one at 4:4:4 with much less compression, due to the double data rate of the 4:4:4 recording, than the studio machine.

Does this make sense?

I'm the wrong person to ask that question of...

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based

Geoff Boyle wrote :

>>It specifically has the ability to record 2 signals at 4:2:2 or one at 4:4:4 >with much less compression, due to the double data rate of the 4:4:4 >recording, than the studio machine.

Very odd they left that out of the studio machine...what were they thinking?

Obviously people will use the little machine for less compressed recording (instead of 3D) in most cases.

Does Panavision record in the 880 or 440 mode?

Jeff "likes the fact it looks like a magazine" Kreines