I have a shoot coming up involving professional motorcross riders. The majority of the tvc will be shot on 35mm with some phantom footage, on a circuit we will build.
I have yet to have a discussion with the riders about how much weight we can put on the bikes, but we are looking for some POV stuff of the riders and bikes (throwing into a corner, landing etc). As they will be quick inserts we want alot of energy in the cuts, so will probably just hard mount cameras to the bikes. Just looking for some suggestions...235 may be too heavy, and large, a 5D may not handle the shake, any suggestions for lipstick cameras with small recording units would be greatly appreciated, or any other suggestions.
Hoping to have a test day with the riders so they can get used to whatever setup we go with, so will hopefully test the 5D anyway, but want a backup plan as well.
Thanks - Ben Jasper
DOP - Sydney
Typically these days we would mount up a bunch of GoPro HD and Contour HD cameras. Google those names to see lots of sample video's. Make sure you watch the HD ones. Nice thing, especially for the GoPro's ... is that they have a lot of different mounting options. You WILL get some Jello defects but you'll also get plenty of nice footage. They're so small and light and water/mud/dirt resistant and cheap that you can put them in places you might not even put a 5D. You might look into using Canon T2i's instead of 5/7/1D's ... cheaper and lighter. It's an APS sized chip ... like the 7D, so multiple your focal length by 1.6X. Get a Canon or Sigma 15 mm full frame fisheye ... works well with a APS chipped camera. The GoPro can shoot at various resolutions and speeds. You might want to try 720/60 and then play with the additional sharp frames in post.
Make sure you and your AC(s) really study the instructions and have them with you! I hear even experienced DIT's having trouble because they don't really know the camera. Note you can change the Default so that when you turn it on you're in "Filming mode and not Stills, Time Lapse, Burst or Self Timer. You can download the short instruction sheet. Get extra batteries, lens covers and 16 gig SD cards. Note the early none HD GoPro's have a bad reputation vis a vis battery life, but the new HD cameras are very good in that regard.
We mounted a 5D on an ATV recently for some trail riding ... nothing too racy or extreme, and had some vibration issues. Came and went. Fairly unpredictable. We tried it with and without a tie down attached to the top hot shoe.
We use a GoPro HD on our weekend race car and love it. Terrible sound quality even though listening to the internet samples it seems to sound better then the Contour HD. Fellow racer/Director/Dp Henry Bjoin gets PERFECT sound with his Contour HD dressed up like a rat: http://images51.fotki.com/v1548/photos/3/43793/8850618/_MG_0001-vi.jpg
Mako, Makofoto, S. Pasadena, CA
>> 235 may be too heavy, and large, a 5D may not handle the shake.
Eyemo. Really, you want it. It's not all THAT big.
In a pinch, an Alan-Gordon-modified AN/N-6A gun sight camera will shoot
16mm, but the running time isn't any longer than the Eyemo. It still
will intercut well, though, and it's half the size.
Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> n a pinch, an Alan-Gordon-modified AN/N-6A gun sight camera will shoot
>> 16mm, but the running time isn't any longer than the Eyemo.
Ahh but consider the mass. This is whee I love digital. Small , low mass = easier and more flexible in terms of rigging And the size of hard ware involved in rigging the camera.
I'd be going go pro or one of the alternative digital cameras.
Dp -the garden state- waiting on the next crop of raspberries
Why not consider a 16mm Aaton A minima ?.
You’ll have film latitude which is great for outdoor contrast and will look much better than any digital camera. Specially the lighter ones.
A good idea to get the rider’s point of view is to place the camera
in the helmet. Depending on the track, but normally the bike shakes
and vibrate too much. You can place the camera near (facing the
rider) the handlebar or on top of the rear fender in order to get
shots of the pilot. There’s one of the Fox videos, I believe it is
the Terrafirma 7, Project MX, where they place a 16mm camera both on
the handlebar and in the rear of Ricky Carmichael’s bike. Great
images. Have a look.
Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca
Sad to see the 2 strokes start to disappear from the motocross world as well ;-(
It happened to the GP bikes not long ago- Whatever camera you decide to go with, try to set up a skinny shutter-either with street or motocross bikes, especially 2 strokes, there's usually too much blur, and it's noticeable under heavy acceleration/RPMs. The footage can look "fuzzy" even though it's in focus, (it's high frequency blur)
If you decide to go with film, maybe you can find a Photosonics S-16
actionmaster or the smallest camera, the 1VN S-16- they could be a good choice (let's say 72 or 36 degree shutter) The 1VN's specs say 1.5lbs for the body, 2.25 lbs. for the mag-the drawback would probably be the +/- 28v power/batteries needed. Maybe you could look into a 3 perf 235 w/ 200' mags or SL cine mags The SL cine camera itself is very light but I believe they only have 180 degree shutters
John F. Babl
Photosonics rents these nice tiny high speed 16 mm cameras ... needs a real prep ... not exactly intuitive to use. I think our Production company had to pay them something like $150 to train one of our AC's
under the shot bag: http://images56.fotki.com/v701/photos/4/43793/4909192/GOPR0231-vi.jpg
Mako, Makofoto, S. Pasadena, CA
This camera is great, courtesy Laurie G.
Rickie Gauld e-mail firstname.lastname@example.org Tel/Fax: +44 (0)1242 676 003 R.Mob:
07860 598 323 J.Mob:077 5940 7520
Web Site "http://www.cotswoldcottages.btinternet.co.uk"
Here is that tiny high speed 16 mm "Photosonics" camera ... 24 to 200 fps:
Mako, Makofoto, S. Pasadena, CA
Rossi's bike sounds horrible, Yamaha went with a different design(they abandoned the flat plane crank to a crossplane design, that's why it sounds like crap)
The 4 stroke motocross bikes sound like crap too.
Here's some nice sounds from the other 4 stroke manufacturers, the Ducati
Desmosedici 4 cylinder makes a real nice sound:
And notice the GoPro ad on the video...
Since motocross bikes are flying around and landing hard I'd be worried about heavy cameras, and would try the GoPro along with a Photosonics 1VN S-16 if you can afford one. A S-16 converted Arri S would also be a good idea, 100' load, very robust-you can rent one from CVT here but shipping might be expensive.
You could always try the cheaper Canon dslr but I bet it will overheat-
John F. Babl
John F. Babl wrote:
>>You could always try the cheaper Canon dslr but I bet it will overheat
By cheaper do you mean 7D and/or T2i?
The T2i has a single processor ... like the 5D, unlike the 7D and 1D mkIV. I think the single processor cameras have less heating issues. Also a lot of heat comes from having the monitor on, which could be turned off while the camera is running ... while hard mounted to a vehicle. Since the camera will be in the air stream as it's being drive around, perhaps that will keep it cooled ... unless it's in a position where it's being exposed to the engine or exhaust heat.
We spent hours shooting with a Canon 1D mkIV on a remote head, see link, and it only shut down once ... for a short time. Not even sure it shut down because of heat?
Mako, Makofoto, S. Pasadena, CA
By cheaper I meant the T2i-
It's not easy to find a S-16 Bolex w/ crystal motor, but it would also be a
great choice. I have an Eyemo with 90, 45, 22 and 11 degree shutters, and I
suppose one could be used-mine has the spring motor that lasts about half the roll, so two takes per 100' roughly-I've always wanted a Nikon mount
conversion/adapter for mine but never found one
I have never liked the Bolex as a crash camera... it weighs easily three
times as much as the gunsight camera and it still only has a 50 foot
run. The gunsight camera really is an amazing tool for the job.
The Nikon mount adaptors for the Bolex are very cheap and common... B&H
has them for twenty bucks or so. It's just a standard C-mount... the
Rx-mount/C-mount differences are minimal once you get beyond 25mm, and if
you're using Nikon lenses intended for a 35mm SLR, they're all pretty much
beyond 25mm anyway.
Bolexes take 100' spools, and 400' magazines which I’ve only used on one
occasion. I've had a few and would love to own a S-16 spring motor RX5 with
optional electric motor, w/ a 10mm Switar they make amazing images
I meant Nikon mount for my Eyemo, didn't know anyone made a c mount to Nikon
adapter for Bolexes
wow, great, so many responses...thanks everyone.
Should have mentioned, that I was really looking for HD options, as another film camera (i.e 16mm) would have eaten too much into my stock/equipment budget (these shots aren't boarded at the moment there for the director’s cut) and as we (director and I) had to fight for the tracking vehicle as well as Phantom (plus all the towers/lamps/manpower/cable's.... that goes with it - shooting in Jakarta so sun not so reliable) I think I have reached my limit.
Think I will go with the GoPro...so cheap and small, and we are really after 12 - 24 frame grabs anyway.. I like the idea of being able to throw it on the ground, even in the "A camera" shot, plus having it rigged on the bikes and get "bonus shots" whilst where doing other setup's. Even be able to rig it myself and get some shots on the test day.
This thread is beginning to drift away from the film side of things- but a few years ago a DP friend told me they were shooting film with/for the X Games, using a variety of cameras and I think an SL Cine- maybe it was for
promos/spots. It might have been an IMAX thing now that I'm trying hard to
remember, but I can't recall the details(maybe it was something Wayne was
referring to on his post) In any case, the sport has evolved to an incredible level- here's Travis Pastrana doing a double backflip yesterday:
"Should have mentioned, that I was really looking for HD options,"
We had a Go Pro HD on a Suzuki Hayabusa at 160kph this week, attached
with its limpet mount and occasionally some gaffer tape. The thing
didn't even budge and the footage is great. We stuck it to the riders
helmet as well.
> Bolexes take 100' spools, and 400' magazines which I’ve only used on one
Right, but the spring motor on my Rex-1 will only run about 35 feet before
it peters out. Some of the newer ones will run a whole 50 feet before
stopping. The problem is that you can't crank that spring back up while
you are riding 75 mph on a motorcycle, so you are limited to the maximum
spring run rather than the length of film.
Mind you I wouldn't want to be changing 50 ft. gunsight camera mags while riding
either, although I admit that I have done it while hanging out of an airplane
when I was younger and stupider.
> I meant Nikon mount for my Eyemo, didn't know anyone made a c mount to Nikon
> adapter for Bolexes
The problem is that the Nikon flange depth is really shallow and the Eyemo
flange is pretty deep, so if you stick a Nikon lens on the end of the Eyemo
mount, it won't focus all the way out to infinity.
The normal way of dealing with the problem is to mill the original Eyemo mount off completely and mount a new Nikon flange onto the front of the camera.
There's a guy in Hollywood who charges about $450 for the procedure and the
end result is excellent.
I made an adaptor to put Pentax universal screw mount lenses on the Eyemo;
it also won't QUITE focus out to infinity but it focuses out to about
thirty feet which is close enough if you stop down. Still, it is a very poor
substitute for the Nikon flange modification.
Am I crazy? Or is this application not exactly why Panasonic developed
Recorded right into the AG-HMR10? The recorder could be thrown in the
guys backpack or strapped on the bike somewhere.
(I have no affiliation with Panasonic or rental houses)
Just seems a perfect use for this system...
Yeah Scott, I've given up spending money on a Nikon mount conversion for the Eyemo. I do have a very nice Baltar with it, just not wide enough for some situations.
A S-16, spring motor Bolex is pretty versatile, I suppose one can add the
crystal motor for certain situations. I once put an Rx5 on my motorcycle and it was indeed irritating to win it. And at high speed/under heavy acceleration it got "fuzzy" high speed blur.
I'd like to mount a 235 or a variable shutter 2C to a motorcycle and use it to chase and film other vehicles(or with a side car for an operator)
doggicam.com has some great rigs, especially if production has a decent budget
>>Yeah Scott, I've given up spending money on a Nikon mount conversion for >>the Eyemo. I do have a very nice Baltar with it, just not wide enough >>for some situations.
There is a guy named Calkovsky out in Hollywood who is right now selling
lots of Eyemo lenses on Ebay. He has a bunch of these really cheap 25mm
Wollensak lenses, fixed focus at 15 feet. And you know, the damn things
aren't half bad... they are nearly as sharp as my Cooke. And they are
twenty or thirty bucks. You need one.
Yeah, I know they say Wollensak on the side, which is usually the sign of
severe aberration and poor sharpness, but I was very pleasantly surprised.
I wouldn't want to use them wide open, but looking at the test charts made
>>A S-16, spring motor Bolex is pretty versatile, I suppose one can add the
>>crystal motor for certain situations. I once put an Rx5 on my motorcycle >>and it was indeed irritating to wind it. And at high speed/under heavy >>acceleration it got "fuzzy" high speed blur.
The nice thing about the Bolex is that you can set that variable shutter down to "2" and open up a couple stops and that high speed blur turns into high speed judder which looks great on camera.
>>I'd like to mount a 235 or a variable shutter 2C to a motorcycle and use >>it to chase and film other vehicles(or with a side car for an operator)
>>doggicam.com has some great rigs, especially if production has a decent >>budget
That's getting a little heavy for my taste but I could see it working if
you're careful with balance.