Hi Speed 3D - Additional

I've got a client talking about shooting 500fps in 3D.

Am I correct in believing that this is likely to be problematic? My understanding is that no two cameras, even Phantoms, run *absolutely* in sync. There is always an error, but in a good system this error is tiny, negligible. So an error of 1/1000 of a second would never show up. However, an error like that at 500fps would be enormous.

Maybe I'm wrong about this (hope so). Any thoughts on this?

I can see two solutions: using unilux lights; or a Zepar lens system, like AbelCine's Z3D.

Would really appreciate some tips on this.

Karel Bata
Director
London (cold, with patchy sun)

Karel Bata wrote:

>> My understanding is that no two cameras, even Phantoms, run *absolutely* in sync.

Absolutely not true. Simply run one cable between two Phantoms (or string half a dozen if you like) and they will Master/Slave in perfect sync. These cameras were designed to analyze one-time-only events such as particle accelerators, missile tests, catastrophic load tests, etc. In such use one must surround the subject with a battery of cameras and then later alignment all the footage later for technical analysis. They use IRIG timecode stamping, which is vastly more precise than SMPTE timecode.

Phantoms maintain perfect sync and are used for high speed 3D rigs all the time.

>> I can see two solutions: using unilux lights; or a Zepar lens system, like AbelCine's Z3D.

BTW, the Phantom 65-Z3D tops out at about 330fps when capturing two Super-35 16x9 images.

I don't see how using Unilux lights solves any perceived problems here. When shooting high speed I find they introduce more issues then they solve.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech

Thanks Mitch. I'm pleased to see I'm wrong (again!).

Shame about the 330ps limit. Why so? Still, I look forward to seeing that camera this side of the pond

Unilux - I'm familiar with them from their use on photosonics shoots. I would have thought that even if two cameras were 9/10 of a frame out of sync then the 1/100,000 of a second unilux flash would 'grab' the same moment in time for both cameras. On the other hand, they are a pain to use. And expensive!

Karel Bata
Director
London

I've shot with Phantoms in 3D at 1,000fps without problems.

Quasar rig.

We used Dino's across phases because we were unable to get SoftSuns that
week.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based
Skype geoff.boyle
mobile: +44 (0)7920 143848
www.gboyle.co.uk

Geoff will have been using the HD Golds. Mitch is referring to the 65 at 300fps 1920 x 1080. The HD does 1000 at 1920 x 1080...

More home work for you Karel!!

Phil Streather
Stereo 3D Producer and Consultant
The Old Vicarage
Leigh on Mendip
Somerset
England BA3 5QG

Tel: 44 1373 813 301
Mob: 44 7771 783603
Web: www.plf.cc

>> Shame about the 330ps limit. Why so?

That's capturing the area of two frames on a single sensor on the 65. Per Geoff, one can do much better with a two-camera regular Phantom rig.

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA

Tim Sassoon wrote:

>> That's capturing the area of two frames on a single sensor on the 65. Per Geoff, one can do much >>better with a two-camera regular Phantom rig.

...or 2 x 65s on a rig per IMAX and others...the 65 does max 300fps whether you use the Russian Lens for one camera or use 2 cameras...

Phil Streather
Stereo 3D Producer and Consultant
The Old Vicarage
Leigh on Mendip
Somerset UK

I'm shooting in a week with the Phantom 65 3D and we'll try some high speed

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based

>> Shame about the 330ps limit. Why so?

Frame rate limitation is based on data flow throughput. The Phantom 65 is a 4K camera. Shooting with the Z3D system means that the camera is essentially recording a 4096x1080 image (we go a touch taller to allow for some adjustment). At that frame size the top speed is 330fps. We're talking 14-bit Uncompressed RAW data.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech

Phil Streather wrote:

>> The HD does 1000 at 1920 x 1080.

Actually, the Phantom HD Gold does 1054fps at 1920x1080.

The Phantom Flex can shoot in excess of 2500fps at 1920x1080. Or more than 1600fps at 2560x1440.

I could go on...

Phil Streather wrote:

>> ...or 2 x 65s on a rig per IMAX and others...the 65 does max 300fps whether you use the Russian >>Lens for one camera or use 2 cameras...

Not necessarily. It depends on the aspect ratio one chooses. If one shoots at the full sensor size of 4096x2440, then the top speed is 145fps (I miss the early days when it was limited to 144fps -- one gross). If the height is reduced to a 16:9 image then it kicks past 150fps and goes up as the height continues to be limited. A 2.1:1 frame (same as 65mm 5-perf standard) is around 200fps and a 2.39:1 aspect is definitely faster than 200fps (working from memory here; don't recall the exact numbers).

The width remains 4096, but the shorter the height the less data processed so the faster the available frame rate. Longer record times as well.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech

Karel

I happy to say you are wrong here.

We have phantom flex's and phantom golds and these camera can be sync within 1-3 microseconds at pretty much any speeds. We have tested the flexes at 5500 fps and they sync at this speed within the same tolerances.

I am happy to give u a demo if u like and u can walk away with footage so u can test the 3d and the sync.

Our office is within arri media and we have access to their 3ality rigs that enable fast lens changes and auto alignment. We also have a new phantom remote control that when used in a 3d setup can playback both cameras shots without the need for quetake video playback to sync the shots, now that said, on a shoot it’s good to have the video playback but instead of playing each cameras shot back and then waiting for the video playback to sync the camera video signal, the cameras can playback in sync straight after cutting on 3d monitor.

There is much more to this setup then I can write here, but I am happy to show u a working setup.

please see this link to our not quite finished website 3d page

http://www.lovehighspeed.com/stereoscopic/

Please give me a call and we can arrange.

Regards

Jason Berman
high speed specialist
Love High Speed
Office within Arri media
near pinewood

+44 7973 698 475
+44 207 043 0973

"65 does max 300fps"

Max speed at full resolution of 4096 x 2440 is 141 fps
Max speed at reduced resolution of 256 x 256 is 1343 fps

At 1920 x 1080, max speed is 320 fps.

Want more details on the specs,

http://www.visionresearch.com/Products/High-Speed-Cameras/Phantom-65/

Just for comparison, I've listed the HD Gold Specs as well......

Max speed at full resolution of 2048 x 2048 is 555 fps
Max speed at reduced resolution of 256 x 256 is 4,400 fps

At 1920 x 1080, max speed is 1050 fps

Specs List :

http://www.visionresearch.com/Products/High-Speed-Cameras/Phantom-HDGOLD/

Looking at the specs it would seem the HD Gold has a higher fps capture rate then the Phantom 65 at similar 1920x1080 HD resolutions?? Can anyone further explain.......

Remy Medranda
Stereoscopicfilmmaker.com
North Hollywood, CA 91601
CA 818.287.7650
NY 646.683.9374

We had two Phantom Flex on a Screenplane 3D rig, shooting up to 1000 fps with no problems at all.

Philipp Chudalla, BVK
Kameraassistent / 1st AC / DIT
Erdingerstr.14
81829 München
Germany
Tel: +49 (0) 163 844 79 92

URL: http://www.crew-united.com?bio=3423
http://www.bvkamera.org/cameraguide/detail.php?id=517

skype: langweilmich.net

Philipp Chudalla is a proud member of the Society of Focus Technicians, S.o.F.T.

Hi Geoff,

"We used Dino's across phases because we were unable to get SoftSuns that week."

How does one use Dino’s across phases? We don't have Soft Suns and I find lighting large sets for even 500fps gives flicker if I use lights lower than 5Ks. or for that matter, shooting practical lights is not a possibility.

This severely limits the use of these cameras in feature length films, especially night scenes where one would like to include such practical lights and use smaller lights to light the set.

Binod Pradhan

"How does one use Dino’s across phases?"

You feed three light sources from the three different phases of the mains electricity supply (and in case you already understood that, I'm sure there's others here that didn't). That way each is 120 degrees out of phase with the others, and the result is a more-or-less constant light.

I'd be curious to know how this is achieved in practice. Back when I worked in live theatre there were strict rules about keeping the supply phases separate - a shock across two is particularly lethal. And three dines must have been hot!

Another solution is to use a studio that can supply DC (with its own safety hazards). Or daylight. Or unilux strobe lights.

Karel Bata
Director
London - clouded over again

Both the Phantom Flex and Gold work perfectly for 3D high speed work. Rigs such as the Element Technica Quasar, 3ality TS-2 and Sterotec rig fit Phantom cameras. Due to the loss of light through the beam splitter, the Phantom Flex with its 800ASA at 25fps 180 shutter is often the preferred camera, and as previously mentions will shoot up to 2500fps in full HD.

I have work with Phantoms and 3D many times and never had a problem with camera synchronicity. See this Microsoft 3D commercial for an example of Phantoms used for stereo work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t15yYgCwLk&feature=youtu.be

Stephen Price
Digital Camera Technician
Love High Speed
London

>> How does one use Dino’s across phases?

Lighting-grip is the best place to get an answer but roughly it's using 3 phase power supply and running the lamps on different phases of the 3 so that whilst they might flicker they flicker out of sync and even out each other.

A gaffer is most welcome to make sense out of my reply for us!!

>Cheers
Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based

>> I find...even 500fps gives flicker if I use lights lower than 5Ks. or for that matter, shooting practical >>lights is not a possibility.

At high speeds, practical’s should be run off variable pure DC where, ummm, practical.

When I say "pure DC", I mean a battery or else a variable power source that's actually filtered well, as opposed to a quickie half wave rectifier setup.

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

I have also shot with Phantom HD Gold in 3D. They worked perfectly and the beautifully detailed slow motion shots really let the eye savour that most prized dimension.

Here is a Mini Cooper commercial we shot last year on YouTube in 3D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MCcwq_iZOg

And a behind the scenes look at how it was done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8IfU6DlteE

Jason Goodman
CEO
21st Century 3D New York
505 8th Avenue #1006
New York, NY 10018
212-244-8585

Hi everyone,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t15yYgCwLk&feature=youtu.be

As I was doing the agency 3D consultancy for this Microsoft job, I was certain we would need high speed and spent some time researching the availability of phantoms (It was during the world cup, so everything north of 300fps was in South Africa).

This is the one thing that concerns me most about the Zepar/Phantom 65 set up: as far as I know there are only about 3 bodies in commercial use, as they are difficult to produce (the 4kx4k chip especially).

Can anyone confirm if there are more than three 65s available?

Best Regards,

Simon Sieverts
previs stereographer
treehaus stereo 3D content
EU Based

Looking at the specs it would seem the HD Gold has a higher fps capture rate then the Phantom 65 at similar 1920x1080 HD resolutions?? Can anyone further explain.......

First off, Vision Research should really take a moment to update their specs. They've squeezed out slightly higher frame rates for all of the resolutions you mentioned but they still list the old specs on the website. I guess it's good to err on the side of conservative and let clients get a happy surprise when the camera turns out to have increased capabilities.

The reason for the difference in frame rate capture is that even when not using it, the design of the Phantom HD Gold and the Phantom 65 Gold requires them to scan the full horizontal resolution of the sensor. This is from the (very fast) rolling shutter. That's 4096 v. 2048 in horizontal res., which accounts for the frame rate difference. But one can choose to throw this away and only record a smaller horizontal extraction in order to save memory space.

The Phantom Flex and all of the other Phantom models use global shutters (yup, even though they are CMOS sensors) and so they can be cropped both horizontal and vertically.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
AbelCine NY

I sometimes wonder if Mitch waits to post after midnight because he gets overtime.

Steven Gladstone
New York Based Cinematographer
Gladstone films
http://www.gladstonefilms.com

Just to make the list complete. Next to the Phantom Gold (using SwissRIG and Stereotec MidSize) we have testet two Weisscams and shot some beautiful highspeed pictures with Felix Storp as DoP.

Marc Briede
Stereoscopic Supervisor

Chroma Film & TV GmbH & CO. KG
in den Schanzenhöfen
Lagerstr. 34c
D-20357 Hamburg
T +49-40-888 884-0

We just finished a gorgeous short film shot entirely in high speed 3D. We used Weisscam HS-2's on the standard rig by P+S Technik, shooting RAW which was processed and graded on Iridas Speedgrade. We used frame rates between 250 and 2000. An extensive behind the scenes video and trailer will be available on our blog shortly. Feel free to contact us if you want know/see more...

Nicolas Henri Sieber
Director / Producer

Kamerawerk GmbH
Switzerland
www.kamerawerk.ch

I can totally agree...two Weisscams in a 3D sync setup work just fine. We did some beautiful tests and jobs already. If you got any questions about our workflow, feel free ask.

Best regards,

Leander Brinkmann
Highspeed Supervisor
Camera Development
Weisscam GmbH

>> I've got a client talking about shooting 500fps in 3D.

>> Would really appreciate some tips on this.

You will get lots of responses, and while I'm sure you already know this, it's worth repeating that the phrase "We used the XYZ System, and there were no problems at all" means something vastly different to production people than it does to post.

To production people, it means that the stuff turned on and worked, the recordings were there on the media they used, the images looked just fine on an onboard 7" monitor, and they more or less made their day without a lot of apparent technical issues or holdups.

By the time post people get a good look and see problems, the crew has moved on to other projects.

I have been called in to post for compositing jobs, and in other instances have seen raw 3D footage, where the crew reported that everything was fine when in fact things were quite far from being fine and required a lot of work to make them fine if budget and time allowed.

If you REALLY want to know what cameras/rigs cause the least post angst in a given 3D scenario, talk to experienced post people who have to fix that "no problems, it's all great" footage every day.

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

I have done several projects on both the Phantom Gold and Flex using a Qtake system to playback both streams with excellent onset results. Communication is key.

Though I agree with Bob It is always imperative to give Post test images or video to verify that Production is indeed looking good.

3D dailies is always helpful as well.

best,

Dane Brehm
DIT: Stereo Data
Oakland, CA

Bob Kertesz wrote:

>> no problems at all" means something vastly different to production people than it does to post.

Bob,

I wish I had that piece four month ago, id' copy/pasted it right away in my second book on 3D. With proper credit, goes w/out saying.

My personal take on this is the story of the computer guy and the production guy.

"It Works" means;
"I have seen it working once" (computer world)
"I have never seen it fail once" (production world)

As a Computer Geek fallen in the cinema world via the so-called
"multimedia hole", I can testify one should always answer the line;
"I swear, this works fine"
by;
"Sure. Now, remind me, you have a Computer Science degree, or you have
an AC background ?"

Now, I've just learn there's another order of magnitude from prod to post.

Bernard Mendiburu
VP Innovation, Volfoni
Paris, Los Angeles

>> If you REALLY want to know what cameras/rigs cause the least post angst in a given 3D scenario, >> talk to experienced post people who have to fix that "no problems, it's all great" footage every day.

Paging Mr. Tim Sassoon you're wanted in the service dept...

Tom McDonnell
Cinematographer
Los Angeles, CA
New Orleans, LA

Bernard Mendiburu writes:

>> one should always answer the line;
"I swear, this works fine"
by;
"Sure. Now, remind me, you have a Computer Science degree, or you have
an AC background ?"<<

Reminds me of Yogi Berra's wonderful quote, which I've lately been whipping out at every opportunity:

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not."

Dan Drasin
Filmmaker
Greenbrae, CA

"Talk to the guys in post"

Absolutely! And at every opportunity. And it's part of the reason I set up The Z Axis in London, which is all about networking and sharing information.

It seemed to me that everyone's off in their own little bubble, developing highly specialised skills, and they really needed to TALK to each other. So at the next meeting we've got talks from Joe Steel (3D DIT extraordinaire Of The Digital Orchard) and Simon Robinson (Chief Scientist at The Foundry) from both ends of the production chain. There's bound to be discussion about how those at the coal face can help those at... er... my analogy falls apart here.

(BTW There's still a slot for anyone wanting to give a talk about some aspect of S3D on June 7. Want to be a hero..?)

So, what *specific* problems can anyone point up about shooting 3D hi-speed? I'm in a bit of a NDA situation with this job (which has been put back now, in part due to my concerns) but I can say it involves 1) airborne fine particles and 2) multi-rigging to build up a dense scene. I'm particularly worried about the latter. In several ways they seem to be thinking in 2D terms that I don't think will work in 3D.

Karel Bata
Director
London (kinda gloomy)

Bob Kertesz wrote:

The timing of this thread came right as Geoff Boyle was addressing the 3D workshop on similar issues. I compiled the highlights and passed them out to everyone. Our thanks to everyone for their words of wisdom. We made you all honorary instructors for the day. That and a quarter will get you...

Vince

PS: Geoff says 'Hi'. Andy Romanoff from Abel is here with the Phantom 65-Z3D(small plug for Santa Fe)

Vincent Gancie
Santa Fe Intl. Workshops

>> "Talk to the guys in post"

Yes, and work with tight teams where everybody knows what shooting hi-speed 3d is all about.

>> "So, what *specific* problems can anyone point up about shooting 3D hi-speed?"

We just released an extensive blog post with lots of tech talk and behind the scenes video on our hi-speed 3D film RISE:

http://kamerawerk.ch/blog/?p=206

hit us with any specific questions you may have.

Nicolas Henri Sieber
Producer/Director

Kamerawerk GmbH
Switzerland
www.kamerawerk.ch