Max Speed On An Older 2C

Hello,

Just a quick question about running the older 2C with the variable speed handgrip motor. Manual says speeds 12-32fps for 16V bat and "rheostat damage" may occur when using voltage above 16V.

So what is the recommended volt/power to run camera at high speed, say 40-48fps? Will a 12/24 Arri block battery fry this motor?

Anybody know of a place to rent a flat base for the 2c in Germany?

Thanks

Dave Luxton
Cinematographer
Edmonton, AB

>Just a quick question about running the older 2C with the variable >speed handgrip motor. Manual says speeds 12-32fps for 16V bat and >"rheostat damage" may occur when using voltage above 16V.

Whew, good thing I've never read the manual.

I've had my friend's 2C up to 72-ish FPS with a custom block battery-running around 38V, I believe, to get up to that speed.

George Hupka
Director/DP
Downstream Pictures
Saskatoon, Canada

So what is the recommended volt/power to run camera at high speed, say 40-48fps? Will a 12/24 Arri block battery fry this motor?

I believe 18vdc is the max you should ever use.

Mitch Gross
NYC DP

>I've had my friend's 2C up to 72-ish FPS with a custom block battery->running around 38V, I believe, to get up to that speed.

Do NOT let the friction specialists and your friend's insurance company
near each other

Sam Wells

16 volts, otherwise it smells funny.

Andy Taylor ( A great fan of friction )
Camera Engineer
Arri Media
UK

>I've had my friend's 2C up to 72-ish FPS with a custom block battery->running around 38V, I believe, to get up to that speed.

That's an unusual voltage. Do you recall the battery configuration or the total amps?

Running identical batteries in series keeps the amps the same, however "weird" things might happen combining different batteries. I was going to try hooking up a 12V and 8V (Arri s belt) in series to hopefully get up to 36fps, or go ahead and rig up a custom 18V block (amps?).

BTW, even though it is not "recommended" to over power this camera, I really only need to run at this speed for a 10 second shot ( half dozen or so takes), BUT, this is for an aerial shot and IF the motor burns out I'm screwed. Hence, the attempt to rent a flatbase motor.

cheers

Dave Luxton
Cinematographer
Edmonton, AB

>16 volts, otherwise it smells funny.

Ouuu... I hate that smell.

Jim Sofranko
NY/DP

Dave Luxton writes :

>Just a quick question about running the older 2C with the variable >speed handgrip motor. Manual says speeds 12-32fps for 16V bat and >"rheostat damage" may occur when using voltage above 16V.

The manual is right. It "may" occur. However, it has been my experience using a IIC in aircraft on aircraft power (24vdc) that for short takes, you will have no trouble. Those motors and rheostats are very robust. On long takes the motor can get quite warm. this may be of some benefit for aerial shots BTW, Arri's disclaimer is as much for their benefit as it is for yours.

>So what is the recommended volt/power to run camera at high speed, >say 40-48fps? Will a 12/24 Arri block battery fry this motor?

In years of abusing the motor -- and the camera -- we never burned out a motor.

>Anybody know of a place to rent a flat base for the 2c in Germany?

Why not make it easy on yourself and rent a 35 III instead of hunting around for a flat base motor. It can't cost much more. The viewfinder alone is worth it.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP

If I recall correctly, the old Cine60 battery belts were switchable between 8.2v (Arri S or M) and 16.4v (Arri 2C). So I think at least 16.4v would be fine.

My Aaton 16v bricks top off over 18v when first coming off the charger.

Mitch Gross
NYC DP

> Do NOT let the friction specialists and your friend's insurance >company near each other

Haha! He uses his crystal base normally, so the old variable-speed unit is a lot more expendable! As others have pointed out, we've only done this for short takes - it's one thing to do it for a 10-second shot, another thing if you're planning on shooting several rolls at that speed!

Also, I don't have experience with a lot of different IIC bodies, since my friend has owned his for years it's the only one I've actually used. It's possible that his is the high speed version. I'm sitting at home so I don't have any reference books handy, but I recall that the tachometer goes up to well past 80, which I think was the limit for the high speed version. (If memory serves, the tacho on the regular version doesn't go that high...)

Dave, a friend of mine had built a "box of power" with 3 12V cells in series, and some kind of variable control knob (I have absolutely no idea how he did that, so I won't venture a guess - battery design not my area of expertise!) with an LCD displaying the voltage, so he could vary it between 24 and 40V. (The cells were 12V, but when new and fully charged produced 13-14, which is why we could usually get 38-40V out of the box. I happen to remember that it was reading 38V at the time we did the high-speed shoot with the IIC.)

I forget why he originally built this box, it wasn't built specifically to be used with the IIC. But it was around when we realized we'd need more voltage to get a higher speed out of the camera.

George Hupka
Director/DP
Downstream Pictures
Saskatoon, Canada

Ed Meyers writes :

>But what did you mean by Arri's disclaimer, that it is as much for their >benefit as it is for yours? I can apply that to so many things.

If the camera/motor were still under warranty, then Arri would not be under any obligation to repair the motor since it was not operated according to their instructions -- and this can be applied to many things, and often is.

Snap-On screwdrivers have the following engraved on their handles : Warning not a prybar, chisel or a punch.

Yet, in spite of that warning, there probably isn't a mechanic alive who hasn't used a screwdriver as a prybar at one time or another. Since Snap-On tools are only sold to professional mechanics, do mechanics really need to be warned that a screwdriver is not a prybar. Or is Snap-On attempting to limit their own lifetime warranty

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP

Brian Heller wrote :

>Or is Snap-On attempting to limit their own lifetime warranty

Not about Snap on tools, but as the guy at the counter said, when the tool with the lifetime warranty was brought back for replacement -

Lifetime of tool over, so is warranty.

Steven Gladstone
CML East Coast List Administrator
Gladstone Films
www.gladstonefilms.com

Brian Heller writes:

>rent a 35 III instead of hunting around for a flat base motor.
>It can't cost much more. The viewfinder alone is worth it.

I've never used a 35-III. Do you mean that they eliminated those awful vertical baffles that were used in the 35-II's finder?

Dan Drasin
Producer/DP
Greenbrae, CA

Dan Drasin writes:

>I've never used a 35-III. Do you mean that they eliminated those awful >vertical baffles that were used in the 35-II's finder?

It's a lot brighter as well. Better optics. The orientable finder is also very handy for aerial work. Early 35-IIIs still had a couple of baffles, but most people had them removed.

35-IIIs also have a flat base and built in variable speed or crystal 24fps. The door is hinged, also a plus in aerial work.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP

George Hupka writes:

>I've had my friend's 2C up to 72-ish FPS with a custom block battery->running around 38V, I believe, to get up to that speed.

If you didn't burn out the rheostat it might have been because you had it turned up all the way, which meant you weren't running any current through the resistance wire -- probably the most vulnerable part of the circuit. You might have put some extra wear on the motor brushes and commutator, though. My guess is that it would have taken maybe 3-4 minutes at that speed to actually burn out the motor, but that would have been beyond the capacity of a 400' mag.

That 2C must have sounded like a cement mixer in heat. Sure hope it was well lubed!

Dan Drasin
Producer/DP
Greenbrae, CA

Brian Heller wrote :

> Snap-On screwdrivers have the following engraved on their handles :
> Warning not a prybar, chisel or a punch.

I have an old one somewhere that a mechanic in Belmont, Mass left in my Citroen.

It was used in a unintentional welding experiment, and has a big burn
in the shaft.

Jeff "our breaker box burst into flames Friday, fortunately I was nearby" Kreines

>Jeff "our breaker box burst into flames Friday, fortunately I wasnearby" >Kreines

I thought you said the Kinetta didn't draw much juice or was that the disc drive

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP

> I have an old one somewhere that a mechanic in Belmont, Mass left in >my Citroen.

Did I ask already? DS 21? DS 19? I would have figured you for a DS 21 guy...

I am sure that the friction guys would have a lot to say about Citroens ...very idiosyncratic hydraulics...just to stay on topic - ish

Mark Weingartner\
LA based

Our Mitchell’s get oiled regularly!

Brian Heller wrote :

> I thought you said the Kinetta didn't draw much juice ;o) or was that the >disc drive

Ah, it was the home breaker box... the Kinetta was in its home at the lab.

Jeff "hears a certain digital camera draws 200 watts" Kreines

> If you didn't burn out the rheostat it might have been because you had it >turned up all the way, which meant you weren't running any current >through the resistance wire

Absolutely - we did exactly that, and used the output voltage control on the power box to dial up the speed.

And yes, it made me appreciate how nice and quiet the IIC is when it's running 24fps

George Hupka
Director/DP
Downstream Pictures
Saskatoon, Canada

> I have an old one somewhere that a mechanic in Belmont, Mass left in >my Citroen.

>Did I ask already? DS 21? DS 19? I would have figured you for a DS 21 >guy..

First it was the scooters, now cars I'm digging out a picture of my old 1966 Citroen ID21 Break. Amazing machines, but it was more about suspension geometry than hydraulics on the D's (and 2CV's). Inboard disc brakes, nothing but the halfshaft going out to the hub, which itself wasn't much more than just the bearing, and the forged radius arms pivoting almost back under the A-pillar, with the shocks cantilevered like a dirt bike, and the rear trailing arms. Very low unsprung weight, and vertical motion had the least mechanical advantage possible.

Astonishing engineering, but not built much better than the average '74 Buick. The iron 4-banger was pretty much a holdover from the Traction Avant. An aluminium boxer was planned, but they ran out of money developing it. There were quite a few D/DS/ID here in LA, even out in the desert, owned by aerospace engineers at Edwards AFB. I sold mine when mechanics became scarce in the mid '80's.

Completely out of cinematographic things to say, other than I don't think I ever was able to get my IIC above 36fps. And speaking of IIc's and cars, how many times does the green VW appear in Bullet?

Tim Sassoon
SFD Vfx & creative post
Santa Monica, CA

I spent a summer under around, and in a DS 21 - had a hankering for an SM (sodium filled valves scared me away) and almost bought a 2CV a couple of years ago - Thought it would be fun to have a car with a motor that much smaller than my motorcycle's.

Then again, I've spent a fair bit of my life with IMAX and VistaVision, so why would I want a normal car?

Some of the Cit engineering was wonderful...while it was working - I can see why the Edwards crowd would have had some aficionados.

I suppose Idiot and idiosyncratic share an awful lot of letters

Mark Weingartner
LA based

Dave,

We have run 2C VS motors with a pair of Cine 60 belts putting out 16V each. Combined that is 32V. We have never "fried" a motor. I can't even remember a smell. And I know the smoke has never gotten out :o}

I don't recommend that you series batteries of different voltages, different manufacturers, or different ampacities. You could be asking from trouble.

I have to agree with Brian that this part of the manual is for Arri's protection (and since they haven't produced a 2C in well over 20 years, even they don't care).

For a CE Motor Base in Germany, I recommend that you try FGV Schmidle in Munich or Berlin. Pille and Licht & Ton probably also have them.

Or you could bring the 35-3 we sold you!!

Marty Oppenheimer
Oppenheimer Cine Rental
Seattle

My dad has an original Arri IIC with three motors. A regular 'wild' 16 volt motor, a constant speed 24 fps, (not crystal just constant speed) and a high speed motor with rheostat. It's a high speed Arri with a tacho that goes up to 80 fps. The high speed rheostat was a big round metal box with a knob on the top and three cables. Two plugged into two 16v block or belt batteries and the other went to the high speed motor. We would set the speed with the dial on the box and off we'd go. 32 volts of film shredding power, but it was with a motor designed to handle the voltage.

It also has a 3 lens turret with Arri A mount lenses and a Arri16 periscope finder and a beautiful fitted silver case for all the kit. It has an old cine 60 flat base so we didn't have to mount the motor underslung, (but we do have the old hi hat for that config). Great rig, still works.

Sincerely,

Ed Coleman, President SuperDailies, Inc.
Cinematographer Supervised Video Dailies

Dave,

I think you'll find over 50fps you'll run into steadiness issues as well on a 2C. As Marty and Brian suggest the Arri 3 is much better suited for HS.

Phil Savoie
Producer / Cameraman www.philsavoie.com
BBC Natural History Unit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

I found a flatbase motor for the 2c (although still waiting to hear exactly what type).

Thanks to all the CML folk for their recommendations!

Dave Luxton
Cinematographer
Edmonon, Alberta

Marty Oppenheimer writes :

>I don't recommend that you series batteries of different voltages, >different manufacturers, or different ampacities.

You could be asking from trouble.

That is very good advice.

Experience has shown that even when connecting very similar batteries in series, you should keep a very careful eye -- or nose -- on them. Each cell in the chain will try to reach equilibrium with each other cell in the chain. This means that if one cell is bad, there may be a lot more activity inside the battery boxes, than there is outside the boxes, especially as the voltage is increased.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP