Shooting - Recording 1080 60p Frame Rates

The new Sony HDCAM SR tape format records 593 mbps which would be more than enough to record 1080 60p.

I had heard a rumour we might see an upgrade on the F950 or other cameras at this NAB to be able to shoot at that rate and record on the SRW-1 field recorder?

Anyone else hear that, or that capability on other cameras?

Jeff Blauvelt
HD Cinema

1080/60p at 4:2:2 is listed as a recording format in the new SRW-1 brochure when using double-data-rate recording (880Mb/s). What shoots at that frame rate right now I don't know, but maybe there will be a camera "upgrade" on the F950 at NAB.

Jason Rodriguez
Post Production Artist
Virginia Beach, VA

>>The new Sony HDCAM SR tape format records 593 mbps which would >be more than enough to record 1080 60p.

Out of curiosity, then what are you going to do with it in terms of showing it?

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
http://www.bluescreen.com

>>I had heard a rumour we might see an upgrade on the F950 or other >cameras at this NAB to be able to shoot at that rate and record on the >SRW-1 field recorder?

For film outs, in terms of resolution ONLY, that would be a Panasonic killer?

Nick Hoffman NYC DP

Bob Kertesz said :

>>Out of curiosity, then what are you going to do with it in terms of >showing it?

Actually I was thinking mostly for as a progressive variable frame rate solution for production, rather than the current workaround shooting 60i for later slow motion onto a 24p frame project.

But if you check out this Mar 2, 2004 press release :

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/4482

CBS is planning to accept HDCAM SR for program masters, I guess they will then compress the output through their existing broadcast channels.

"The Sony HDCAM SR format has a number of clear advantages including its 593 Mbps data rate, 12 channels of digital audio, and its ability to handle pre-read and three lines of metadata data per field," according to Robert Seidel, CBS vice president of engineering and advanced technologyâ€¦ "The metadata capability is crucial to providing such services as captioning for the hearing impaired, V-chip data, audio metadata, and the broadcast flag for protecting digital broadcast content from unauthorized Internet redistribution."

Jeff Blauvelt
HD Cinema

>>Out of curiosity, then what are you going to do with it in terms of >showing it?

Well, of course.

But I meant in terms of feeding the upstream broadcast monster...

Hey, the time approaches, have you decided where at NAB you're going to hang your hat? I'm there for a limited time and want to see what you're working on.

Bob Kertesz

Jeff Blauvelt wrote :

>>I had heard a rumour we might see an upgrade on the F950 or other >cameras at this NAB to be able to shoot at that rate and record on the >SRW -1 field recorder?

It never ceases to amaze me as to how much mileage Sony can get out of press releases for a product that basically doesn't exist yet. For the amount of press the SR format seems to get, you would think there are thousands of them out there, that you can go to any rental house and have one tomorrow, and that it's become a standard.

The truth is that a year after its much-ballyhooed introduction, it's still not generally available. And the "field recorder" doesn't exist as far as actually being able to even see one, let alone use it. Even Fox only has one studio machine. And yet people are already talking about this year's Sony NAB products as if they're proven and available.

Amazing.

Mike Most
VFX Supervisor
IATSE Local 600
Los Angeles

Mike most said :

>>It never ceases to amaze me as to how much mileage Sony can get out >of press releases for a product that basically doesn't exist yet.

There are a couple of HDCAM SRW-500 VTRâ€™s upstairs in the building we are in.

Michael Mann is using them, he shot "Collateral" with Tom Cruise about 80% with the Viper, in Videostream mode instead of raw, the rest 35mm film and also handheld footage with the F900. I understand they recorded to S-two and DVS disk recorders then transferred to SR tapes on the studio vtr since as Mike pointed out the portable SR unit must not have been available yet.

They "downconvert" to regular HDCAM which is the "offline" and was their dailies screening format Leon Silverman at Laser Pacific is guiding all the post so he would have all the details.

Jeff Blauvelt
HD Cinema

>>I understand they recorded to S-two and DVS disk recorders then >transferred to SR tapes on the studio vtr since as Mike pointed out the >portable SR unit must not have been available yet.

As far as I know (and I do know something about it) there were no disk recordings involved. It was recorded directly to tape using the studio machines - the only ones available then and now. This is one of the reasons that the Videostream mode was used rather than FilmStream.

I believe they also felt that they got a bit more detail out of the blacks in this mode, although my take on this is that they determined this through, shall we say, "suspect" color correction techniques - not unusual in this new world of video post personnel trying to deal with anything other than linear, video based images.

Mike Most
VFX Supervisor
IATSE Local 600
Los Angeles

>>it's still not generally available.

In Los Angeles the SR format is available at a number of facilities. We've been working solely in the SR format for the last six months or more.

Places like Plus8 Digital, Post Logic, Foto Kem is where we've found the decks...and I know Laser Pacific and a number of other houses also have the decks in house. For what its worth, we have had zero problems with the format since we started working with it, and the engineers at these facilities seem to like some of the features over other Sony recorders.

BTW...bummer that Cine Alta night is the same night as the CML gathering. Opting for the 9:30 showing in order to attend both. I guess the event planners at Sony are not lurking on CML after all.

Steve Schklair
Cobalt / 3ality

I know that you have spoken at length about this at various times - and your opinion like all of ours is only an opinion based on your experiences - but why do you think they screwed up so much when it is so widely used and complimented on by many a Dp and cameraman?

Cheers

Matthew Woolf
NYC DP

Mathew Woolf writes :

>>why do you think they screwed up so much when it is so widely used >and complimented on by many a Dp and cameraman?

I would respectfully suggest that those cameramen have never known anything better.

I realise that that is a harsh statement but for high end work the system is not useable.

As a replacement for a DigiBeta it's great.

As to being widely used, they have a great marketing machine, that doesn't mean that they have a great camera.

As this list was set-up to discuss 2K-444 and non-compressed it obviously fails in every possible aspect.

I realise that there are people happy shooting DV as there are people happy shooting DigiBeta or HDCam. I'm not saying that these are bad people, they just either don't have the resources to be able to use something better or are doing work where those formats are appropriate.

In my work that kind of corner cutting is not acceptable.

Sony tried to push HDCam into my area of work, if they hadn't oversold it then I believe it's reception would have been much better.

It's very good at what it does.

Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Director of Photography
EU Based
www.cinematography.net

Mike Most said that :

>>As far as I know (and I do know something about it) there were no disk >recordings involved. It was recorded directly to tape using the studio >machines - the only ones available then and now. This is one of the >reasons that the Videostream mode was used rather than FilmStream.

The DVS and S-two portable disk recorders were used in testing, but Mike is right they went with recording to tape during the actual production. The DVS disk recorders could hold up to 55 minutes of FilmStream, but evidently they could not download directly to HDCAM SR, they had to render out first I think so that the number of hours it took became totally impractical.

How do you get the FilmStream mode 10 bit 4:4:4 log uncompressed data to a dual stream HDCAM SR videotape recorder? Would all the footage shot always have to stay on disk? How much do you lose with the compressed Video stream 10 bit 4:4:4 RGB video which can go to tape in real time, if you are not compositing? Even though Videostream is compressed, the full resolution of the chip is still used for the 2:37 format

Perhaps Mike has more details, or Jeff Rosica or someone else with Thompson or can anyone else tell us?

Jeff Blauvelt
HD Cinema

>>It's quite sad really, they still won't send me the Curve software, >apparently I'm the enemy.

Geoff

I don't think it's just you. I was told that I'd get the "film match" software from Sony over a month ago, and I've received no response since.

Kent Hughes
DoP
SoCal

Jeff Blauvelt wrote:

>>How much do you lose with the compressed Videostream 10 bit 4:4:4 >RGB video which can go to tape in real time, if you are not compositing? >Even though Video stream is compressed...

Video stream is not compressed. It's the same data formatted as 10 bit video. Any and all compression would be done by the recording VTR. As for "loss," the most significant difference between FilmStream and Videostream is the 10 bit log formatting of the former vs. the 10 bit linear formatting of the latter. Since the Viper's A to D's are 12 bit (I believe), more of that information is retained in the FilmStream mode due to the 10 bit log format, because in that format more levels are allocated to the areas of the image that require them. It is usually estimated that 10 bit log carries the equivalent significant information of 16 bit linear.

At least that's the way I understand it. Perhaps Mark Chiolis could give a better explanation.

Mike Most
VFX Supervisor
IATSE Local 600
Los Angeles

You Guys are welcome to borrow my Copy.

Its a bit more complicated than you might think and its not a silver bullet. you still need to fully understand the elements involved and if you understand that then you know how to get there using the current Menu driven interface.

All this is another way to "Look at" and change the Camera "Tune job" its just another way to look at the response of the camera.

If lets say that you are married to the Histogram in PhotoShop it displays info one way or Curves displays info another way. Both give you a tool to change or manipulate the image.

This File editor is just another way to look at it and manipulate it. When Jeff Cree introduced this to us at the Santa Fe Workshops I said "we will be screwing this up for years to come" but I don't think you will be as impressed as you think when you get it. Remember we all have relatively similar controls in the camera already.
But its worth playing with.

I have version 2.0

Sean B. Fairburn

Jeff Blauvelt wrote :

>>How do you get the FilmStream mode 10 bit 4:4:4 log uncompressed >data to a dual stream HDCAM SR videotape recorder?

Isn't this a "standard" DualLink realtime transfer?

+++ Florian Rettich +++
+++ Europe based DIT / vision control +++