Shooting 48 fps For Sync Sound

I've been asked to test a 3-D system that uses a single camera, single lens approach.

I will be shooting 48 fps @ 1080p for sync sound (to derive 24fps real time, using alternating frames for left eye and right eye). I realize there are temporal issues with this concept, but that's not germane to my question. I'm not sure what it is they're doing in post and am bound by an NDA at this point not to discuss anything about the system.

I'd like to use a 2/3-inch CAMCORDER (for a smaller footprint than the F-23 because there's a lot of water/ underwater work).

Requirements:

- native 10-bit 1080p imager.
- 48 fps full time.
- dynamic range approaching that of the Varicam 3700 / F23

The movie I'm testing it for is for theatrical release, so we’ll be going for a filmout. So 10-bit, 4:4:4 colour space at the above frame rate is preferable.

Is my only option the upcoming F9000 or are there other options beside the F23?

I realize that the EPIC and SCARLET are possible candidates as well, but we're supposed to shoot these tests within the month.

We're also testing a 35mm sized imager and likely I'll use a D-21 or an F-35. The underwater work would still likely be shot with a smaller camera.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Jacques Haitkin DP
San Francisco

>>Requirements:

>> - native 10-bit 1080p imager.
>> - 48 fps full time.
>> - dynamic range approaching that of the Varicam 3700 / F23

Hi Jacques, hope you're well. How about an EX3? Maybe not what you're thinking.
I assume the 10-bit refers to recording and not capture A-D. The EX3 could record outboard to 10 bit.

Best,

Graham Futerfas
Director of Photography
Los Angeles, CA
www.GFuterfas.com

>>How about an EX3? Maybe not what you're thinking.

No. The 10-bit is great, but I put the threshold at 2/3-inch imager due to the filmout requirement. Plus the EX-3 is 720p @48 fps.

Thanks for saying hello, Graham. I'm good. Hope you're well too!

Jacques Haitkin DP
San Francisco

The PhantomHD makes the most sense.

- smaller footprint.
-1080p 444
-perfect for B-cam/underwater work

My second option would be RED doing 3K @ 48fps. Third option would be SI2k.

A EX3 only does 48fps in 720p mode.

I have footage for testing both or could arrange a F23/3700 vs Phantom vs Red test since I'm local to you.

Dane Brehm
DIT: Phantom Tech
San Francisco

>> A EX3 only does 48fps in 720p mode.

An EX3 does 60fps in 720p and 30fps in 1080p

David Williams
________________________

www.davidwilliams.com.au

0403 962 907
________________________

> My second option would be RED doing 3K @ 48fps. Third option would be SI2k.

SI-2K maxes out at 29.97 at 1080... If the resolution requirement is
dropped to 720, there are many choices. At 1080, not so much!

George Hupka
Director/DP, Downstream Pictures
Saskatoon, Canada
Listmum, Cinematography Mailing List

This why it would be my third choice it only meets the resolution/colour depth requirement if size is an issue.

720p RAW (cineform) could be uprezzed. Phantom is the way to go as it meets size, framerate, and quality for extracting frames for single acquisition 3Dwhich is what Jacques said he was doing.

Dane Brehm
DIT : 3D camera tech (ET)
San Francisco

David Williams writes:

>>An EX3 does 60fps in 720p and 30fps in 1080p

Thanks David,. I know. I own an EX-3. What I meant was, that at 48 fps, the EX-3 will only record at 720p; not 1080p.

Jacques Haitkin DP
San Francisco

George Hupka writes:

>>If the resolution requirement is dropped to 720, there are many choices.
>>At 1080, not so much!

Agreed, George. Hence my appeal for solutions.

Jacques Haitkin DP
San Francisco

Dane Brehm writes:

>>Phantom is the way to go as it meets size, framerate, and quality for extracting frames for single >>acquisition 3D which is what Jacques said he was doing.

I agree. Thanks Dane!

Jacques Haitkin DP
San Francisco

>> Is my only option the upcoming F9000 or are there other options beside the F23?

Jacques, the F9000 is no longer "upcoming.". Abel has them available for rent. And of course we also have the Phantom.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech

Mitch Gross writes:

>>Jacques, the F9000 is no longer "upcoming.". Abel has them available for rent. And of course we >>also have the Phantom.

Thanks, Mitch! Are the boards that allow the camera to run 48 fps available (within the next 4 weeks)? Will it capture 4:4:4 at 48 fps?

Jacques Haitkin DP
San Francisco

>>Thanks, Mitch! Are the boards that allow the camera to run 48 fps available (within the next 4 >>weeks)? Will it capture 4:4:4 at 48 fps?

We have an SRW9000 with ALL the boards. So yes, it will capture 4:4:4 at 48fps no problem.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech

Would you have audio sync drift issues at 48 fps?

Regards,

Vincent Hogan
President
Cineworks Digital Studios, Inc.-Miami, New Orleans
www.cineworks.com
http://www.imdb.com/company/co0189980/

>>Would you have audio sync drift issues at 48 fps?

Hey Vinny. Long time...

Possibly. Not my expertise. I assume you mean because it's not a multiple of 23.98...? Point now moot due to update.

Jacques Haitkin DP
San Francisco

Vince Hogan writes :

>> Would you have audio sync drift issues at 48 fps?

Jacques Haitkin wrote:

>> Possibly. Not my expertise. I assume you mean because it's not a multiple of 23.98...? Point now >>moot due to update.

Hi everyone,

The F23 / F35 / 9000 can shoot 48fps as Mitch pointed out. But that is an OFFSPEED framerate, so no sync sound at all.

I ran into that question when I prepped my last 3D project. There might be a DCI standard for screening 2x 48fps for 3D (48 fps per eye), but there is no camera around (at least not that I am aware of), that can record sync sound @ 48fps. I don't think there's a 48fps Audiodeck or a 48fps Timecode (I guess this could possibly be solved using 24PsF TC?) but 48 fps production
is not ready yet at all...

I would love to hear more about that.

+++ Florian Rettich, bvk +++
+++ Vision Control / D.I.T. +++
+++ Munich, Germany +++
+++ http://www.digitalfilmservice.de +++

>> there is no camera around (at least not that I am aware of), that can record sync sound @ 48fps.

But I presume it would be speed-accurate enough to hold synch in a double-system setup? One might wonder what the application would be, but ride films would love to shoot and project at 60P or greater.

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA

Florian Rettich writes:

<< The F23 / F35 / 9000 can shoot 48fps as Mitch pointed out. But that is an OFFSPEED framerate, >>so no sync sound at all.

Whatever speed you're shooting at, you can do a high-quality *analog* real-time transfer from your original audio recording medium to whatever editing timebase you're using. A second of time is a second of time, regardless of your chosen framerate.

If you play back on the original recording unit your clock speed will be spot-on and there should be no speed drift over time. You won't have preserved any original timecode, but as long as you use head- or tail-slates (or even sync up by eye) you should come out smelling like a rose.

Details may vary with your equipment and your NLE, but that's the general idea.

Granted, the clocks in your camera and recorder may not be dead accurate, but these days the discrepancy should amount to less than a frame over a time span that will permit adding or subtracting a frame of audio seamlessly.

Dan "digital brain, analog soul" Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA

One hurdle with 48fps is there's not timecode format for it so you have to use 24fps with fake fields.

Mike Gross
NYC